Martin Zell

Weinstein: So, Marty, first of all I want to thank you for agreeing to meet with us, and you’ve got so much to tell us that I hardly know where to begin. But, like in Alice in Wonderland, she said “Let’s start at the beginning.” So I’d like to get some information from you about how and when your family came to Oregon and to Portland.
ZELL: It was shortly after World War I that they came from what was then Austria, which later became Poland and now is in the Georgian section of the old Soviet Union, from a city called Lemberg. In the Polish was Lviv. A lot of Portlanders came from that area. But they came when it was in Austrian hands. And the first to come over of the four Zell brothers were Julius and Harry. 

They came over a little bit before World War I. They came to New York and later they were in contact with a cousin who had come earlier to Portland and opened up a little drugstore. So in New York, Julius for a while was a waiter at the old Waldorf Astoria, and Harry worked in a leather tanning company. This was the time of World War I. They were two boys in New York. But they did have relatives from that area who lived in Brooklyn, so that they did have a nucleus of family when they came over here. Then at the invitation of Mike Silverman, who was the cousin, they moved to Portland. [They] went into business with him, and after working for him for a while [they] bought him out. At that time they had a store down by the Union Station on Sixth and Glisan. They actually had two stores. One was a drugstore and one was a small jewelry store. Now I’m going fairly fast in this, because I’m going over quite a few years. But that’s the nucleus of the first part of it, why they came to Portland. 

Weinstein: I’ve been taking some notes and I’m interested to know about Mike Silverman. 
ZELL: Well, Mike Silverman actually was married to a Rose Silverman who was a stepsister of Harry and Julius; that’s what the relationship was. And Rose Silverman had a sister Frances Schwab, who was a stepsister. Frances Schwab’s son was Herb Schwab and the daughter was Mildred Schwab, who was a former City Commissioner in Portland. They were step brothers and sisters to all the four brothers. So then Mike Silverman had come here earlier, as I said, and opened up this store. 

Weinstein: It was jewelry store, you say?
ZELL: It was a drugstore.

Weinstein: Now, had he come also from Lviv?
ZELL: He came from that area, yes. 

Weinstein: Because you mentioned that there were other people that came from Lviv.
ZELL: There were other people who were cousins. Harry and Julius knew them, I never met them, but they lived in Brooklyn. And I don’t know their last names.

Weinstein: Okay, so Harry and Julius were born in Europe.
ZELL: Right.

Weinstein: And Milton and Dan, where were they born?
ZELL: Well now, in ‘19, right after World War I, Julius went back to Europe and was going to bring his father and mother over. But his father passed away in that short period of time, so he brought his mother over, and Dan and Milton. He brought the other two brothers and their mother. Dan and Milton lived with the mother. They bought a home, or rented a home, at that time in South Portland. Then Dan went into business with Harry and Julius. Then Milton went to college, went to Oregon and Washington, and later went to optical school. And [at] that time Julius went to optical school and became an optometrist, as did Milton. Harry and Dan were in the jewelry part of it. And that was the store that was opened on Sixth and Glisan. I think the Comedy Club is there now. It was a comedy club then. [laughs]

Weinstein: [laughs] For a different reason. Tell me, since you mentioned that, what it was like being in the store with some comedians?
ZELL: Then we’re jumping way ahead! At that time, when it was at Sixth and Glisan, I wasn’t even born yet. So I didn’t come into the picture until, oh, when I grew up and finished college in 1949. At that time they had moved from Sixth and Glisan to Park and Washington, then to Broadway and Morrison. By the time I came in they moved from Broadway and Morrison, which is the building that you’re talking to me in now, across the street to where Zell Brothers exists, in 1949. And there were eight of us there. There were Harry, Julius, Dan and Milton, and in the second generation: myself, my brother Alan, cousin Leonard and cousin Ted. So eight of us running that store, you could probably say it was pretty proficient. 

Weinstein: We’re going to get into more of that later. But I would like to go back and [have you] tell me about where you lived when you were little. 
ZELL: The first home we lived in was in the Dolph Park district by Grant High School. And that’s where I lived and Julius lived. Harry lived in the Irvington district on Siskiyou Street. Milton and Dan and their mother lived in South Portland on Jackson Street.

Weinstein: So did they have the typical South Portland experience?
ZELL: Well, they knew all the people. They grew up there. And of course with all the people there, The Rosencrantzes, the Schnitzers and the Carls and Rotenbergs and all.

Weinstein: What do you remember about your early childhood? Tell me about your friends. Did you play with a lot of mostly Jewish kids?
ZELL: I went to Fernwood School and had friends there. I can still remember them: Billy Wolverton is one. And John Anderson, who later on became an orthodontist, I went [in]to the Navy with. Fernwood was right across the street at that time and then we moved later to the west side. I went to Ainsworth School and you saw the picture of our 1940 Ainsworth football team here. Then I went to Lincoln High School, where it was a composite of a lot of Jewish kids. It was a very heavily Jewish population at Lincoln High School, which is not where Lincoln High School is now. Obviously, you know, where Portland State, the main building of Portland State College is.

Weinstein: So how did you relate? Were most of your friends Jewish?
ZELL: Most at that time, yes, because we went to Sunday School. And then in that area, Lincoln High School. So it was a composite, yes. I had other Gentile friends too, but primarily it was Jewish, because we just grew up together. And the high school area, that’s where it was. 

Weinstein: And you said that you all went to Sunday School together, or most of you?
ZELL: Yes, the Sunday School we went to is not where Temple is now. Sunday School was on 13th and Main. And it was the building right on the corner. We shared the building with Multnomah College. At Hanukkah there was the big menorah, and also for the Multnomah College, a Christmas tree. But we grew up. We were not overly confused. We understood that the situation was sharing.

Weinstein: So did you feel comfortable being Jewish? How did you feel about being Jewish?
ZELL: Always I felt comfortable being Jewish, because basically it’s a very caring and compassionate religion. They care about people. And of course the tenets of it were not so stern or strict that you had to live in fear. It was not a religion of fear. So I always all through my whole life I felt comfortable in it.

Weinstein: It kind of gave you a freedom too. You didn’t feel constricted to do x, y, and z. You could do a, b and c as well.
ZELL: Yes, well, I felt that I could be as strong and religious as I wanted to be. And that I could be as religious in my own home as I could be in the synagogue. I didn’t feel that I was under any restraints or any special pressures or any rules other than trying to be a good person. And when I made a mistake or erred to live up to it, and correct it, or whatever, you know, what you hope for and what you hope your children will do. 

Weinstein: What was the Jewish experience in your home? Were they very observant?
ZELL: No, we observed the Seder and we observed Hanukkah. But I’ll tell you the truth. We were in the jewelry business. The jewelry business thrives on Christmas. And so, we also celebrated Christmas. Not obviously in a religious sense but more of the holiday. So we exchanged Hanukkah gifts, and we had a few [friends?] over for Christmas, because the Christmas Eve was kind of the end of our season. We all went out to dinner and the next morning we shared gifts.

Weinstein: So there was no conflict there at all.
ZELL: There was no conflict in my mind. We still do it to this day. We have a Christmas dinner. After we’ve also observed Hanukkah, we have a Hanukkah dinner. We treat Christmas sort of as a national holiday. It’s Thanksgiving relived, I suppose what it would be. But, I know too there are a lot of Jewish families, especially families that were in the retail business in that area that have done similar things.

Weinstein: Speaking of business, what was it like during the Great Depression? Did you hear stories? You were in high school, or you were in grade school?
ZELL: No, in the Depression – I was born in 1927. The real part of the Depression was in ‘29 to ‘35, so I was just a youngster. But what they did, they worked hard, Julius, Harry, Dan and Milton to build this business up, moving it as they progressed from the Sixth and Glisan original store that I told you about, closing the drug store and concentrating on jewelry. Then when Julius and Milton became opticians, they had an optical department, which they continued. Then they moved up to Washington Street. And the Depression era, it was just like others that had to work hard. They had to watch their pennies. And they grew up knowing the value of a dollar. All Jewish people that thrived, that were able to get through, thrived later because they were careful and very prudent during those Depression years. They were hard, hard years for everybody. Not only Jewish, but also Gentile, the whole American scene. 

Weinstein: They had to be very creative also in order to survive. Were there a lot of creative devices introduced into the business that kept it going? Were they more creative say than a merchant across the street?
ZELL: Their creativity, in my opinion, was in their advertising. The hired an advertising man who became a very close friend. His name was Bob Smith and he was also the advertising man for the old Lipman-Wolfe store. The ads that they ran during the middle ‘30s and the late ‘40s were excellent. They won awards with them. And it put the name Zell on the map in jewelry. In fact, Zell Brothers was probably the largest independent single store for jewelry in the United States. With the exception of Tiffany and Cartier. There was none larger. And when they later joined the Zale Corporation, with the exception of Tiffany and Cartier, they were the leading sales of the whole Zale industry of 2000 stores. 

Weinstein: It’s very interesting, just speaking statistically, because ours is a small community. So what do you attribute that to? The advertising and the merchandising? I mean the fact that Zell Brothers in Portland, Oregon could be ranked that highly.
ZELL: When the jewelry store hit the peak, there were eight of us in the store. All specializing, even overlapping, covering every facet of the business. Plus, we hit World War II. To be very honest, World War II was a boon to the economy. Anybody that thinks differently is wrong. So the timing was right. And the advertising was good. And Zell’s had good public relations, which now in this era is very important. In other words, they were highly thought of in the community. That is probably one of the main reasons that they’ve been successful over the years. Because as a family they’ve given back to the city and the area and the community, because they thrived in this area and this community.

Weinstein: I wanted to ask you that. I’m glad you brought it up about community involvement other than just within their own ethnic group but out in the general community, different organizations.
ZELL: Yes, different organizations. Julius was very, very big in the Chamber of Commerce. He worked closely with a fella – Jewish people in the area will know Eddie Weinbaum, who was the secretary in the Chamber of Commerce. Harry was involved with the Masonic Lodge in that era. Julius even ran for City Commissioner one time [laughs] and when we begged him to stay out (because we didn’t need politicians in retail), he ran against a fellow named Mark Grayson. And Julius would bug Grayson, who was a super commissioner. We got Julius to drop out, but the election didn’t have time to take him off the ballot, so he almost beat Mark Grayson [laughs]. Fortunately he lost.

Weinstein: That would have been a legal battle.
ZELL: Yes, that would have been. The political arena is all right if that’s what your specialty is. But if you’re in the retail business, you can only make enemies; you can’t make friends. 

Weinstein: Sure. Did the brothers ever talk about like you say, what was it? Dan was in the Masonic Lodge?
ZELL: No Harry was in the Masonic Lodge. Harry was also on the Board of the Temple Beth Israel.

Weinstein: But I’m thinking of the Masonic Lodge. Was there any…? It sounds like I’m looking for Jewish trouble, but I’m not. I’m just trying to get a feel for how it was.
ZELL: He did that actually for public relations. Because there were a lot of the people that were clients that wanted him to go into it.

Weinstein: Sure.
ZELL: But as far as being enthusiastic or hard working, or be working up these ladders in the lodge, he didn’t do it. He didn’t go to the meetings.

Weinstein: Okay.
ZELL: A little bit, like he’d go the Rotary Club.

Weinstein: Like a business gesture.
ZELL: A business gesture. But they did have community involvement.

Weinstein: And Julius was a performer.
ZELL: And Julius was big in the Chamber of Commerce.

Weinstein: And also wasn’t he a performer?
ZELL: And Julius [was] also at the Civic Theater, did a lot of plays there.

Weinstein: Do you remember any of that stuff?
ZELL: I remember because I had to go to about seven or eight performances of Ah Wilderness and the Royal Family. I almost knew his lines in there. But he was good, he got a lot of write-ups in the paper and of course it kept the name in front. Because at that time, you got to remember the Civic Theater was pretty strong. You got to remember there was no television, there’s no Buckeroos or Blazers [games] to go to. Very seldom did you have a big deal. There was no Memorial Coliseum. Nor did you have these big events or concerts come to town. There was no Arlene Schnitzer Performing Arts Center, so the Civic Theater was very strong. So when they had a play it got tremendous write-ups. And at that time Portland had two papers, they had Oregonian and the Journal. Both of them would give them write-ups. We have a scrapbook and their would be Julius Zell sitting there in Ah Wilderness and….

Weinstein: Yes, I remember also there was a social component to the Civic Theater. A lot of prominent socialites used to be in guilds supporting the Civic Theater. 
ZELL: Yes, well it was Portland’s own. And of course they had drives to keep it going. Now they have little theaters around the town, which do very good. We always like to go. But the Civic Theater at that time was a highlight and it was prominent, mainly because they had no competition.

Weinstein: Your analysis of what else was available is very good. What you say is true. It was almost the only show in town, other than the movies and a few concerts. But not anything like what’s pulling at people today, for the entertainment.
ZELL: Well I’ll tell you this was even before the Auditorium was built, and the Paramount. The Arlene Schnitzer Theater now was the Paramount Theater and that was primarily movies. The Orpheum Theater did have a movie and stage show, and then they had a few nightclubs. They had a nightclub where Sammy Davis Jr. came to town and Amato’s where Sophie Tucker came. 

Weinstein:  I remember that, in the ‘50s.
ZELL: But it was a different world then because you had to make your own entertainment. Now the entertainment is just thrust upon you. You have to turn it off, not turn it on.

Weinstein: [That’s] really a good analysis. That’s really interesting the way you state that. You said that the family didn’t – or you all decided not to get involved in political things. But was there any feeling among the family of support for one or the other?
ZELL: Yes, we also always supported candidates that we felt were best for the city and state and nation, but not heavily. Most of our dollars actually went into Federation. Of course, during the ‘67 war, that was an emergency. Most of our dollars have gone that way. And the politics – we give token amounts, nothing big, just to people we felt were worthy of the office. We never got involved in national things. Although, in any election I don’t think there’s any of the family that ever failed to vote. With that being the European background and everything, that was very important. 

Weinstein: So that was stressed in your family?
ZELL: And, the funny thing is, although in business you have a lot of disgruntled arguments or different opinions, but on the political side of it, it was almost unanimous that Zell was a block. I don’t think we ever had an argument over (in a national vote) who we were going to vote for president or senator, or anything on that order. 

Weinstein: Interesting.
ZELL: Harry Zell also was very active in harness racing. In fact, one of his main competitors and friends was Wayne Morse, who was a Senator from Oregon. He was in harness races. My mother’s cousin, second cousin, was Richard Neuberger who was the Senator from Oregon. And his father owned the old Bohemian Restaurant. 

Weinstein: Were they friendly cousins?
ZELL: Very friendly. And of course, that’s probably the one national race that we supported heavily was when Dick Neuberger beat a Republican named Guy Cordon. A very, very close election, and Richard won and he became a big name in Washington. He was very, very well respected on both sides of the aisle. 

Weinstein: And then his wife succeeded him.
ZELL: His wife. I had her for English at Lincoln High School. Maureen Brown was her name and later Maureen Neuberger. Both were in the State Legislature in Oregon and she later became Senator after he passed away. 

Weinstein: Now this was on your mother’s side?
ZELL: Right.

Weinstein: Tell me, we haven’t talked about your mother’s side of the family. Where did they come from?
ZELL: My mother’s side of the family came from Germany. Leipzig, Germany. They were related and in contact in the local community to the Stengers. Bob Stenger and Howard Stenger. Both of them passed away. Bob was a dentist and Howard was the optometrist to the Neubergers on that side. Those were the main connections on my mother’s side. 

Weinstein: Was your mother born in Portland?
ZELL: My mother was born in Everett, Washington. It was interesting. Her sister (there were two sisters, Hannah and Helen), Hannah and she married two brothers. Hannah was married to Harry and Lillian was married to Julius. And there were two sisters married to two brothers.

Weinstein: Do you know how or why their family went to Everett, Washington?
ZELL: I don’t know that.

Weinstein: That was pretty remote.
ZELL: I don’t know the background of their coming over. But I know because my mother was born here. There was not too many. I don’t know why they went to Everett, Washington. 

Weinstein: Just a lot of Jewish people that settled in small towns, went there because they were merchants. 
ZELL: Right. Well, my mother’s father, my grandfather, actually had a little cigar stand, the Knights of Columbus, here in Portland. When they moved here to Portland he ran that little stand. He died when I was [young]. Yes, I don’t remember him. I remember the mother, my mother’s mother, who was a super lady, with a great sense of humor.

Weinstein:  I remember your mother. I met her very briefly. She was a lovely lady, a nice lady.
ZELL: Yes, Lillian. She was the queen of the family. Of course I’m prejudiced. She was the most intelligent of all of them, the most worldly, the most well read.

Weinstein: And refined, I remember.
ZELL: Yes, she was a super lady. This was in the funeral eulogy, was what a fine lady she was. She was a lady as you describe her. Not in a stiff, or propped, or a staid way, but in a warm, compassionate, caring, loving way.

Weinstein: Now, also didn’t she have another sister?
ZELL: She had a sister, Helen, whose daughter lives here in Portland: Sue Davis. She’s married to Lance Morton, Sue Morton. She’s a first cousin, we’re very close, like a sister. She lives here. None of the older Zells are living today.

Weinstein: No, they’re all gone.
ZELL: They’re all gone. Milt was the last one to go, about three years ago. 

Weinstein: Where did you go to college?
ZELL: I was at Stanford for a couple of years. At the end of World War II when I got out of the Navy, I went to Stanford on the GI Bill of Rights. But then the war ended and Stanford went from 2000 to 10,000 [students]. I couldn’t get a place to live. I knew a lot of people in Seattle, so I transferred to the University of Washington. And finally finished the last two years up there.

Weinstein: So in about ‘47 you went up to Seattle to school?
ZELL: Yes, about ’47, and I left in ‘49, just the time we opened the store on Park and Morrison.

Weinstein: This is a rhetorical question because obviously you meet people wherever you go very easily. Did you form any deep friendships with people in Seattle when you were in school?
ZELL: Oh, yes. I knew a lot of people when I was up there. One I knew all my life, Jimmy Greenfield. And I still go to B’nai B’rith Men’s Camp, where we have a lot of friends. I even knew part of your family, Alec Lewis. And your dad used to go.

Weinstein: Tell me Marty. I would like to talk about Men’s Camp, because it’s a topic we haven’t really touched on in this project. And there’s a lot out there. Tell me about your experience at Men’s Camp and how you started going.
ZELL: I started going in 1956 because a very close friend of mine I went to Stanford with, Jerry Matin, his father and uncles were there. He said, “Come on, let’s go.” So I’ve been going for 48 years straight. It is a very close bond of fellas who just want to go down there and let their hair down for a week and just have fun and kid around and joke. It used to be that before golf became prominent, they’d all stay at camp and they’d all play cards and kibbitz and have shows and different gags and things like that. Later on it became a drive for the funds they collected over the years and spots [at summer camp] for the children. But to keep the camp going, they have solicitations near every. They built tennis courts. They have a beautiful swimming pool. They have a beautiful recreation center.

Weinstein: We were talking about Men’s Camp and you were telling me about all the fundraising the men have done and the improvements they’ve made at the camp.
ZELL: Well, the primary reason is for the kids and to keep it going and to have cabins and a real experience for youngsters. Those who can afford it, of course, pay. But we do have a lot of scholarships. They built the cabins now so that they’re not only heated, but they have toilet facilities within the cabin. You know it’s a coed camp. When the kids go down, obviously, they have plenty of counselors. The experience that these young people have you can’t get anyplace. You hear about these camps in the East and all over. There’s nothing like B’nai B’rith Camp. It’s a tremendous facility. I mean now. So we get about 110 guys down there. We raise $60,000 to $100,000 a year to keep this thing funded. And to keep the camp – it’s a tremendous physical plant – to keep the maintenance on it to keep everything running. Plus, sending the kids that just can’t afford it. And not only Jewish, there are Gentile kids too, and black, African-American youngsters and Asian youngsters if they so desire to go there. 

Weinstein: I went there, from Seattle, in the ‘40s. I would go down there on the train from Seattle. 
ZELL: I went there in 1937, and I met a lot of the guys that are going with us today. But, it is a tremendous thing, the friends you meet there you have for a lifetime, because you meet them, and you go every year. You meet all types of people.

Weinstein: You mentioned my Uncle Alex. 
ZELL: Yes, he was a character.

Weinstein: Do you have many stories about Uncle Alex, cause I have one. He rode a horse into the mess hall one time during a skit.
ZELL: He rode a horse in with Ligal Weinstein, Jack Weinstein. We still talk about it today. They take prominent men, who don’t get up in the morning. And they’re right on Devil’s Lake. They take them down, and if you don’t get up in the morning on time, they throw them in the lake. And also take the tires off their car and put them on the roof, you know. All kinds of things that are just harmless, no bodily harm. One fella, who imports firecrackers for July 4th, he would get up himself every morning at 4:00 and line the firecrackers up [and] at 5:30 the firecrackers would go off. He had to stop it after two or three times because neighbors around the lake complained. But he woke everybody up. Just crazy but harmless things. And they’d play softball and tennis and golf and they had all kinds of activities.

Weinstein: Good food?
ZELL: Yes. They put on a show. They have a Man of the Year every year. And there’s one fella, David Kahn, who has a tape made, a tape honoring the Man of the Year. He knows a lot of famous figures. Bob Costas of NBC did one and Jackie Mason did one. Larry King did one. Bill Walton and David Stern of the NBA did; we have a whole series of them. 

Weinstein: What men have been Men of the Year?
ZELL: Oh, there’s a whole list of them. There’s about 30 of them. The main ones are Milt Carl, the late Allan Weinstein who just passed away, Hal Mink, Zanley Rosencrantz.

Weinstein: Marty Zell?
ZELL: Yes, he got it one year [chuckles].

Weinstein: I knew you were too humble to tell me that.
ZELL: Oh, later on, Allan’s son, Jeff Weinstein was a man of the year. It’s been going on about 30 [years]. They honor them and their families come down, and it means quite a bit to them.

Weinstein: Well, tell me, because of the crisis that’s going on now at the Jewish Community Center, how is that going to impact on B’nai B’rith Men’s Camp?
ZELL: There’s a lot of it [that] is unknown now. What the Men’s Camp would like to do is have a drive to get funding to keep the Camp separate and maintain it and run it. But there’s a lot of other things go into it. That is, what plans [having] to do with the Center, what type of a setup they’re going to have. So there’s a lot of unknown. 

Elaine; Who owns the camp?
ZELL:  The camp is owned by the Center. 

Weinstein: The land and everything?
ZELL: Yes. The land was donated by the then Governor Julius Meier. The camp was run by the Center. The fees of the campers paid for it. But the upkeep of the camp and the maintenance and the addition, the capital improvements were all done by the Men’s Camp.

Weinstein: Okay, so that’s a separate association.
ZELL: That’s a separate association. If it was possible for it to take it over they would like to do that to maintain it and keep it going for future.

Weinstein: So there’s a great desire to keep the camp going.
ZELL: There’s a great desire of all the men to keep the camp going. But there are a lot of unknown factors because the Center is in a bad situation.

Weinstein: A bad situation. I know you play a lot of golf.
ZELL: Not well, but [a] lot. Yes.

Weinstein: Tell me about your experiences or your love of the game. How you got into it, what you get out it? 
ZELL: Well, I like it. I don’t play it well. But I got my family interested in it too. My son plays well and my daughter now, Cathy, works in the pro shop at Pumpkin Ridge. She plays a new game of golf. My son-in-law Dave plays golf. I’ve belonged to Tualatin now for over 40 years. I play there when I get a chance. I enjoy it because I do relax when I do it. It’s enough physical exercise. If you hit a good shot, rewarding. If you hit a bad shot it’s a good test of your capability to live with defeat. 

Weinstein: To restrain yourself [laughs]. When you travel, do you take your clubs?
ZELL: Sometimes. But traveling if we go anyplace usually we do not golf. Oh, if we go to the beach or something like that I’ll take the clubs. But any major trip? No

Weinstein: You don’t take it to New York [laughs]. I’m just kidding.
ZELL: Once in a while, we went to the islands where there’s a golf course – we’ll take it. But most of the trips it’s not conducive to golf.

Weinstein: I know there have been [Jews] at Tualatin over the years. The membership, the ratio, it used to be a Jewish club. 
ZELL: Well, it used to be a Jewish club, just like Waverly was all Gentile. Portland was all Gentile. And then they had to open it up by law, and as they opened it up, I think there are more Jewish members at Portland Golf Club than there are at Tualatin. Tualatin, I would say, at the most, 10% to 15% are Jewish. So it just makes it a different world. It’s a different world for all clubs.

Weinstein: That leads me to my next question. I want to ask you [phone rings] Did you want to take the phone?
ZELL: You tell me.

Weinstein: Okay. I wanted to ask you how you feel about whether that is a positive, negative or neutral thing to you that the Tualatin, for instance, isn’t all Jewish?
ZELL: Oh, I think it’s a positive thing all over. It has to be positive, because we live in a different world now. It’s the same thing. They used to be that there was no intermarriage. Now I would say some of the happiest marriages are intermarriage. You live universally with people. You can still maintain your friends and your contacts, but you also live in a Gentile world.

Weinstein: So what do you suppose are the reasons for that kind of change in the world? Living more comfortably in a Gentile world, because years ago that wasn’t the case.
ZELL: Well, because it’s opened up for Jewish people. It used to be Multnomah Club had no Jewish people, and Waverly. There was only one, Tualatin, that had Jewish people. Otherwise you couldn’t unless you did want to play golf. But that’s true of so many organizations, even the staid Arlington Club, or what’s the other one?

Weinstein: University.
ZELL: University Club had no Jewish people. Now Jewish people want to join. It’s open to them and not as open as some of the golf clubs. But it’s the world. It should be that way. It should be open to all people. But I think Jewish people probably gained more accessibility to other things than Gentile, because they had theirs already.

Weinstein: I’m going to hammer this question at you. I want to hear your idea of why do you think this change took place. Was it because of economic times? Was it because of the State of Israel? Why do you think Jews became more accepted and comfortable in the general community?
ZELL: Well, I think it was the other way around. I think it was the general community got more – how should I phrase this – more used to accepting Jewish people. It had to be the Gentile that accepted the Jewish people. The Jewish people were not closed, at least in my memory, to Gentile contacts. The were very, very strict, in the early days, that they didn’t want intermarriage. But they wanted to expand and belong to places where they were, because they thought it wasn’t fair and it was discriminatory. Jewish people, Asian people, Black people had been discriminated against. So when it opened up a little bit, when Gentile people had to accept the fact that they live in a community where there are minorities. And when they started to do it and it came that golf clubs and other organizations had to open up, it was the right thing to do, but it had to mostly come from the Gentile side. I would say, 90% from the Gentile side.

Weinstein: I have to compliment the Zell family for extending themselves out into the general community, to show people that Jews didn’t have horns on their foreheads and that we had the same pluses and minuses and characteristics as the general community. So a lot of credit goes to things that your family got involved in. 
ZELL: Well, I’m very proud of the family, and I thank you. But it is very important that the contributions that are made by Jewish families and Jewish people are recognized. I think one of the nicest and greatest things I’ve heard is the Schnitzer gift to Oregon hospital and the school. I mean, that’s a tremendous, tremendous thing, and people, I think they can see. The Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall, what they did for the theater. And the Newmarks for their Performing Arts [Center]. You could go on and on. The Schnitzer gift of music was a great, great thing.

Weinstein: Were you in the military? Tell me about that. When?
ZELL: I was in the Navy, for about two years. ‘45 and part ‘46.

Weinstein: So that interrupted your college career.
ZELL: No, it was before I went to college. I did it right out of high school. I joined the Navy because I knew I was going to be drafted, but I liked the Navy. I got into electronics. The Indy Program it was called at that time. And we went into electronics, which is sonar, or radar. After basic training we kept going to school. And if you flunked the test on Friday you go out to sea. I stayed only a year and a half. And I built a radio all by myself from my [own] hands – a radio with the tubes and everything that worked. Now I can’t even tune in the television good.

Weinstein: Where were you stationed?
ZELL: I was stationed at Great Lakes, Illinois; Biloxi, Mississippi; and Treasure Island, San Francisco. We got around.

Weinstein: I was going to ask you if any of your Portland friends were in the service with you?
ZELL: Two boys, John Anderson and Gordy Smith, went to Grant High School. I knew them very well. We were at Great Lakes together. Hal Mink was [in] the Navy, Milt Carl was in. Oh, I remember Phil Feldman was in. Quite a few.

Weinstein: Did you experience any kind of antisemitism in the Navy that you remember?
ZELL: No, I don’t remember any in the Navy, because they were so (especially in boot camp) they were so strict that you had to do so many things. You didn’t have time to have prejudices. You get up 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning and you don’t get to bed until 11:00 at night. You’re marching or jumping the walls. You don’t have time to do that. In our group I remember there were three or four Jewish boys in there. 

Weinstein: Did you hang out together? Or do you remember?
ZELL: No, we had a little service on Sunday morning, it wasn’t Saturday morning because Sunday the Gentiles, the Catholics and Protestants and the Jewish ones. We had a rabbi there at Great Lakes. Because there was enough in the whole camp at the Great Lakes, there were thousands. You know, they could fill it.

Weinstein: When you got out you had a Navy career in electronics. That’s what you stayed doing?
ZELL: Yeah, a lot of electronics technicians made it. Had I gone out to sea, I could supposedly have worked the sonar and the radar. Fortunately I never wanted to test that out. And I got out. We won the war in spite of me.

Weinstein: You volunteered you said because you knew were going to get drafted.
ZELL: Yes, we were going to be drafted.

Weinstein: How would you assess that whole experience? I mean, you were very young. Was it an adventure? How did you do it?
ZELL: It had good points and bad points. The discipline and some of the things they did were beyond me. But the relationships you made and the experiences you had – get a leave and go to Chicago and Milwaukee and New Orleans and San Francisco. As just a kid, you have a super time. And the things you learned and go to school and see how things worked, that was positive. But in the service, most people, they do some things that are just anti- everything. Because the strictness had in many cases no common sense to it. You have to have strictness and discipline. But so many things they did just didn’t make sense.

Weinstein: So there was kind of an injustice there.
ZELL: It’s not so much an injustice, just silly. Some stuff that was absolutely stupid. Just some of the rules that they made didn’t make sense to me.

Weinstein: During all these experiences, we’re talking about going back to, even though you were a little boy, the Great Depression. And then the World War II and then the Korean War. And so many social changes have happened in our country. I’m thinking about the role of women. Was that ever something that you thought much about? Did you experience that in business? Were there women working in the store other than in clerical positions? 
ZELL: Oh, we had a preponderance of women in the store. We had more women than men. And then when I opened up my business here it was mostly women. Because I’ve always felt, and I think I’m right, that women meeting the public come over much more sincere than men do. I think a woman would be able to sell a car so much better than a man does because people trust women more. I think it’s universal. And if I ever go to buy something that’s important, I only look for a woman.

Weinstein: That’s interesting.
ZELL: Because I just feel more comfortable. I feel that they’re more sincere, and care more. And some of the men that I’ve seen work and sell are more interested in making the sale than satisfying the situation. And as far as women’s rights are concerned, our whole family has always been pro-choice and equal pay for equal work. That’s a universal thing. That shouldn’t even be argued. That should be just common, common sense. But the big thing about the abortion thing – I’m against abortion, but I’m for a woman’s right to choose. I think that’s very, very strong. I’m for the cell…

Weinstein: Stem cell research.
ZELL: Stem cell research. I think absolutely should go forward; you can save lives. When people are against that, to me it’s ridiculous. You can save lives. But so many things. Women have come a long way. The only way they’re behind now is in pay. I think that probably the Walmart suit now may straighten some [of] that out. 

Weinstein: That’s been very interesting to observe. Now there’s been a back and forth. Walmart comes out with all these ads saying how wonderful they are in all those issues and then there are lawsuits filed. It’s just been very interesting to observe.
ZELL: I think it’s had a big part of it. People will be afraid. See people now are going the other way. People are afraid to fire somebody, especially if it’s a minority or a senior. They’ll keep people on that shouldn’t be kept on because of the fact that they don’t want to be sued for discrimination. And that can go over too far. People should be hired or fired on their ability. And it should be a process that’s fair and measured. 

Weinstein: You’ve given me a lot to think about, and the transcriber is going to have a wonderful time transcribing the tape because there’s so much you’ve covered – so many different circumstances and time periods. Susan, I’m wondering if you have any questions that we may not have touched on.
Susan: I don’t.

Weinstein: Pretty well covered it. [to Marty] Do you have any other things you’d like to talk about? Are there other topics you would have liked me to touch on?
ZELL: No. The only thing I feel really strongly about is bringing children into the world. And I think it’s one of great responsibility. Because if somebody chooses to have children, it’s an obligation. But they do it for selfish reasons. It’s for self-gratification to bring children into the world. You’re not bringing them to raise somebody who’s going to be president of the United States or a woman’s going to be Senator or whatever. You do it for your self-gratification. So once you do that, you have a great responsibility. To me one of the greatest tragedies in this country is the neglect of children. In this country, the greatest in the world, to have children that are hungry and are left alone and they are day-cared to death is just a crime. And I think people who can‘t afford to have children should wait until they’re able to do it.

Weinstein: And they should have the right to make that choice?
ZELL: Oh, sure. They should have the right to make a choice, but they should also have guidance to make the choice. But bringing them into the world, you have [a] tremendous responsibility. To see that they’re right, and it’s not easy. Not so much Jewish people. I think Jewish are pretty well aware, with exceptions. But there are some cases, oh, I’d say in the African-American world, sometime in the Catholic world, in the Mormon world, there’s not enough caring.

Weinstein: So you kind of hinted that maybe one reason people have children indiscriminately is more maybe for selfish reasons, that they want, you gave an example, to have a son that could be president for their own gratification. What do you think causes those attitudes?
ZELL: Well, I think it’s universal. Very honestly for myself, I wanted children because it would make me happy. I didn’t know how happy they were going to be. But it would make me happy and my wife would be happy to have children. 

Weinstein: But it’s a responsibility.
ZELL: Yes, we cared. And fortunately they grew up. We were blessed that they grew up to be healthy children. But the care, especially when you see some that don’t have the advantages, and that are not cared for, I think it’s one of the biggest problems. It’s universal in this country that children that are not taken care of. And we see so many of them that are running away. We see so many kidnapped, we see teenage people running away.

Weinstein: And a lot of parents are irresponsible.
ZELL: Yes, they don’t know where their kids are. And then of course, the big thing is the drugs. It’s murder.

Weinstein: Well, it’s interesting to get off on a different tangent. I don’t think I’ve ever discussed that topic. But it’s very good to hear your views on that. It’s a tough world.
ZELL: Well, I hope this gives you a little background. I would hate to have to be the editor of all of this.

Weinstein: No one is going to edit, what we’re going to do, and that’s a good chance for me to tell you, there will be a paper transcription and it will be sent to you. And you can edit it for any material you may not want included. You may have second thoughts about something you may have said. Or you may want to add something. I’d be delighted to come back. I mean to sit here. I know you’re thrilled to death taking time from your business.
ZELL: No. You were very nice and you were very fair when I interrupted you.

Weinstein: What I mean is that if there’s anything you want to add when you get the paper transcript you can make notations or call me and we can talk on tape. And then we’re going to ask you to sign a release because the transcript will become part of the archives at the Museum. We have students; we have historians; we have local people that come and want to do research in our archives. And so we need your permission to allow that to happen. So you will be asked to sign a release and we’ll send you a document. But, I thank you for giving us the time.
ZELL: Well, you’re devoted to go around and do this. It takes time and takes study to have a background of questions. 

Weinstein: It’s interesting. I guess I’m a curious person. I don’t mean curious odd, I mean curious inquisitive.