Helen Herner

Mitchell: Hi Helen, let’s start with the basic questions, where were you born?
HERNER: San Jose, California.

Mitchell: And when were you born?
HERNER: June 6, 1932

Mitchell: Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood?
HERNER: Sure, what kind of information do you want?

Mitchell: Anything that you would like to share that you think is important.
HERNER: Ok, my parents moved to San Jose when my brother had asthma. My brother was 10 years older than me. So, that’s how they got to San Jose.

Mitchell: Where did they move?
HERNER: They were living in Oakland, California and both my parents were foreign born. My dad was born in Poland about 60 k southwest of Warsaw and my mother was born in East Galitzia. And my dad was born in 1890. My mother was born about 1900 or 1901, she was not sure. East Galitzia was under the Austrian Hungarian empire at that time. And so my mother was there during the First World War. I’m going to do some research to find out if her shtetl had the military roaming about. She came to this country in 1920 and my dad came in 1913. He left Poland when he was 18, lived in France for 5 years then he came to this country.

Mitchell: Can you tell me what their names are?
HERNER: Oh sure, my mother was, her maiden name was Gevertz. There are Gevurtzes in Portland but they spell it with a “U.” And I met someone who had a Gevuerts name but they were from Russia, could have been in Galitzia, part of it but anyhow she was from Austria/Hungary. By the time she left in 1920 it was already, I think the soviets were already there. Her name was Dina Gevertz Ball and my dad was Max Ball. And his town was Gambine in Poland and most of them didn’t survive the holocaust. 

Mitchell: Can you tell us more about his experience?
HERNER: My mother was probably born around 1900 or 1901. And my grandfather was in United States [sic] shortly thereafter. Then my grandmother left Europe with my oldest uncle who was an infant and left my mother, who was probably about two years old, to be raised by her grandparents. So she was in Europe until 1920 when they sent for her. By then WWI was over, and a lot of other horrible stuff was going on. So she came from Europe by herself by ship and went to New York and then from New York took the train to Oakland, California. And my dad left Poland, I only figured this out because I knew how old he was when he came to this country. So he left Gambine at age 18, I don’t know if the draft had anything to do with that, then went to Paris for five years, then came to this country in 1920. When he was 13 I assumed he was already bar mitzvah and his father asked him. This is my story from him. His father asked him, “What do you want to be, a butcher or a tailor?” His father was a butcher and he knew he didn’t want to be a butcher. [laughter] His uncle was a tailor and so that’s what he did all his life. He became a tailor; he was a good coat maker. He knew how to make a whole suit, not just part work like a lot of them. And he was very fussy about it. So they met in this country. A fellow, a landsman who was also a tailor knew the Gevertzes and introduced my dad to my mother. And they got married, I’m guessing 1921, and then my brother was born in ’22 and I was born in ’32. 

Mitchell: And you said your brother had. . . .
HERNER: He died when he was 45; he had leukemia.

Mitchell: And that affected where you moved from San Jose?
HERNER: Oh no, when he was a child he had asthma and they lived in Oakland and San Jose was a warmer climate so that’s why they moved. I don’t know if it mattered or not but that’s how it happened. That’s how they got to San Jose. 

Mitchell: Where do you come into the picture?
HERNER: Well I was born 10 years later. [laughter] I had a big brother.

Mitchell: What was it like growing up in San Jose?
HERNER: San Jose was, at that time, a little town. This was over 80 years ago when I was born. Not like now. A lot of San Jose was just orchards, you know, present day San Jose.

Mitchell: Say your birthday again.
HERNER: June 6, 1932. It was a small town and there weren’t any Jews where we lived. There was a small Jewish community but as a kid I wasn’t paying any attention to those things. But in my neighborhood where I spent most of my time, there were no Jews. My little girlfriend went to Catholic school. A couple of my other playmates, I don’t know anything about them other than that we used to play together. In the summer I’d roam around with a little sun suit. They had these little cotton sun suits and that’s it, over underpants. And I had no shoes and that’s how we spent our summers, it was nice and warm in San Jose. I went to school there through the fourth grade. I started the fifth grade when we moved to Oakland. We moved to Oakland when the war was already started. My dad left to find work and then finding a place to live was really difficult with the housing shortage because of the war and the shipyards were nearby because of the war and being near San Francisco, the Bay Area there. There were a lot of shipyards, in fact Kaiser Permanente started there because of the shipyards.

Mitchell: So what did he get a job doing?
HERNER: He was a tailor. Well when he was in San Jose he was a coat maker, he made the coat, that’s more difficult than the pants, and someone else made the pants. He had a little tailor shop above this retail store, a tailor shop. The tailor-made clothing, they may have had other types also. Then the guy who owns it was Irish, from Ireland. My dad worked there for quite a few years. I was born during The Depression so he was working there during The Depression. The Depression didn’t end until the Second World War started, that’s when it ended. I was born in the middle of The Depression in ’32. It was bad but I was a kid, I didn’t know, I wasn’t hungry.

Mitchell: Really?
HERNER: My parents always had enough to eat and we had a place to live. I was fine, I didn’t know anything different.

Mitchell: Really?
HERNER: What would I know? I was a child.

Mitchell: When you look back on it how would you describe the experience?
HERNER: It was fine, I was secure, I wasn’t worried about anything. I had plenty to eat, I had little friends, I went to school and I had a mother and a father. They weren’t like a lot of people nowadays. Every time they would say hello or goodbye love you. I don’t think they told me once “I love you” but they didn’t have to, I knew they loved me. And I never told them I loved them. It would sound weird to tell them that. And I don’t know if it was cultural thing because they were from Europe or it was just that period in history where people didn’t do that that much. My sister-in-law, in her family, still to this day they talk to each other on the phone and they say “I love you.” I say “I love you too.” I don’t want to say “I don’t love you.” Or I’m not going to say—so don’t call me back. [laughter] so it wasn’t part of our. . . . And they weren’t demonstrative either. That’s probably a cultural thing at that time.

Mitchell: What do you mean by that?
HERNER: Well nowadays people are always hugging and kissing their kids. We didn’t do that. When you’re really little then Mama would be more demonstrative toward me. But especially after I turned 13 that all ended. When we moved to Oakland my dad found a place where we could live; I don’t know if it was an old house converted or what but it was apartments. And it was definitely an old building. And the part where we lived had what they called railroad plan. There was a dining room, kitchen, bedroom and it’s all in a row. Not real good when you’re a teenager and dating. [laughter] Oh, one interesting thing about San Jose, I slept in a crib until I was six years old in the room with my parents.

Mitchell: Was that rare at the time?
HERNER: I don’t know, I never asked anybody. That’s just the way it was.

Mitchell: Was there an economic difference between when you were growing up in San Jose versus Oakland? Or something about the housing plan?
HERNER: I don’t know, I never considered economics as a child because I was not insecure that way. So it wasn’t anything for me to be concerned about. That was my parents concern, not mine. And I was never hungry and I was never without clothing and I was never without shelter. I had all the basic needs plus I had a mother and father that didn’t say “I love you” but I knew they cared about me. Actions are louder than words. So it was a different period. I don’t think it was just Jews that behaved that way, not just Jewish immigrants that behaved that way. I think people were a little more careful the way they dealt with their children, what’s proper and what’s not proper. I mean my parents weren’t proper like, say, an English person who’s concerned about the way you put your fork or anything like that. Some English people are more concerned about that, which is nice, I’m not criticizing. That kind of stuff didn’t matter but how to behave with your children, especially after a certain age. My mother was funny because here she was, this immigrant Jewish woman from an Eastern Europe shtetl and living in San Jose, totally out of character. She had funny ways; her speech pattern and things she said and did. And I always thought, “Well that’s just Mama.” But what it was, something I realized when I was an adult, way along in my adulthood, was that if my mother lived in Brooklyn or New York or Cleveland, where there were huge Jewish populations she wouldn’t have seemed “funny” or “unusual.”

Mitchell: Tell me more about her childhood.
HERNER: They didn’t talk about it. You know you can only get a couple little stories out of them and that’s that. In my dad’s case, he never talked about this sibling in Europe. I had one Uncle who lived in Santa Clara, contiguous with San Jose. I’m guessing he sponsored my dad. And then I had one uncle, of my father’s siblings, who immigrated to Argentina. And as far as I know, I sort of assume that the rest stayed in Gambine, Poland. Maybe they lived elsewhere, I have no knowledge. I’m just kind of putting the puzzle together. And he never talked about them. Of course, he did talk about them because in Gambine there were about 2000 Jews when the Nazis came into that area, into Gambine, that was west Poland so they were hit pretty early. Out of a couple thousand the estimate is that only about 200 survived. Where are they? I don’t know, did my father’s family survive? Who knows? I don’t know. I’m just assuming they all were killed. So, no wonder my dad didn’t talk about them.

Mitchell: Do you remember what stories he did tell you?
HERNER: Both of them talked very little and I just kind of accepted it because in those days you didn’t question your parents. You didn’t bug them, “Tell me, tell me.” Nowadays kids would, but back them you just didn’t do that. It wasn’t something you were told. It’s just something you understood. So they had a couple little stories and that was that. My dad told me, of course, the story about whether to be a tailor or a butcher. And then he told me the kids nowadays, well he was talking about how they have so many toys and so much stuff. He said when he was a kid he got some rags and made a ball and he whittled a whistle. That was his toys. When he was 13 he became an apprentice with his uncle to become a tailor which he did until he died. Those were the stories from my dad. My uncle told me I looked like their mother. I was blonde. You can’t tell now but I was blonde for a long, long time; until my 50s I was still blond. But anyhow, apparently, she had blonde hair and she wore a…. I always forget the word but it’s a wig. You know, that Jewish Orthodox women wear. And I always forget what it’s called, the name of the wig in Yiddish. But Jewish Orthodox women when they got married they would cover their hair, sort of like Muslim women do. But with their scarves or more seriously sometimes they veil themselves even. But they covered their hair with this wig. And I think at one time they shaved their heads. And sort of remember reading that how this started, and these things are forgotten through history, with time, is that they shaved their heads to look unattractive because during war, which is still happening today, women are raped, freely. That’s a war behavior to undermine the culture. So I vaguely remember reading this but I’d have to verify. You might be able to go online when you find out what that wig is called in Yiddish and check to see what it says about the history. Because a lot of countries, like in Africa, remember there are women that put coils around their neck. Have you seen pictures? Same reason. But after time they forget and it becomes a sign of duty. And then there’s another culture, I think in the Middle East, where women tattoo special tattoos on their faces, same reason. So this is not a unique behavior. Of course women are constantly being raped during wars, otherwise too but, you know, not as much.

Mitchell: You mentioned that your mom seemed strange to other people. Can you tell me more about that?
HERNER: Well, my nieces, they always say, “Grandma cracks me up.” [laughs] They think she’s funny, she’ll say something that I don’t think she meant to be funny but people start laughing and you can see her thinking about it and then she starts laughing too. But she was just culturally very Jewish woman from an Eastern European shtetl. 

Mitchell: Tell me more about what the shtetl is about.
HERNER: The shtetl is not what people think. It’s not “Fiddler on the Roof.” That’s what most people think. They romanticize the shtetl. The shtetl was not that. The shtetl could be like any other Eastern European situation. There was so much conflict, so much going on, so much violence by the Jews and against the Jews. They had to protect t themselves so violence with violence sometimes. Making a living, just having a family, it wasn’t…you can’t romanticize places like that. People who came to this country they have this memory but the memory is not always reality. So it’s really hard, I’m just learning, I’m taking this course from Natan. I’m really learning about these things and the reality of these things. You read a lot of different history. You can’t read just one. You’d get an improper picture if you read just one. We read a lot of primary sources. I can’t define a shtetl. It’s very complex.

Mitchell: Tell me more, you ended off in Oakland.
HERNER: During the war I remember distinctly, we were visiting my grandparents in Oakland, living in San Jose. And they had one of these old-fashioned radios that were kind of like an arc shape. And it was in a little cove section, I think they had a telephone there too. And I was on the floor, I remember this. I was lying on the floor I was either doing some kind of workbook that you buy at the five and dime or a coloring book or whatever it was. And then the program was interrupted and President Roosevelt came on that was his speech to announce that we were attacked. So that had to be December 7, 1941. I was nine years old. So the war started and then my dad left for Oakland and he found a place and we followed him to Oakland and then in this old house converted into apartments, or maybe it was originally apartments, hard to say because it was very strange floor plans. Anyhow, upstairs from me were two boys John and Paul. [laughs] It was in the summer when we moved and they were in camp so I was kind of a tomboy because I liked climbing trees and stuff. I thought “Well, I live here, this is my backyard too.” I was all ready to defend myself from these boys, all the boys in the neighborhood. And Paul, I remember his birthday because it was December 7th, so he was a year and a half older than me and his brother was about a year younger than Paul, John was. So I thought it was going to be tough. So they arrived and they had a bunch of boys in the back yard and I went in the back yard and I was ready to fight. [LAUGHS] And Paul said “She can be here, she lives here.” Well we became buddies right away. So Paul and John and I we played together a lot. WE played Tarzan. Paul was Tarzan, I was Jane and John was Boy, you know the little kid. There was a shed back there and we used to climb up on top of it and then walk fences. And then I would, nowadays people are so protective of their kids, I would be too. But I used to ride on the handlebars with Paul, we’d ride all over the place on his bike. The we used to go out and play either what we’d call, “hit the bat,” in the street, with a baseball bat. The person would be up and then the other people would be in the field and someone would pitch the ball and you’d hit it. And if they catch the fly or get it on one bounce, I think one bounce was ok then they were up. And you’d go to the field. And then we also played kickball. When we went outside we’d all yell either, “dibs” or, “no dibs.” Dibs meant that if you broke a window you all have to pay. No dibs means tough apples. [laughs] You’re stuck if you break a window. But we shouted that so it was an agreement right off. And we did break windows. Because we played in the street.

Mitchell: Were you the only girl?
HERNER: I was the only girl who played. Jackie Kretzer (isn’t that funny, I remember her name?) was next door to me and she and I would play together more girly things. But I played mostly with the boys. I thought, “Why can’t girls do these things?” it was crazy. Like in PE we played basketball when I was in junior high. They played in two courts. There was a defensive and offensive. And you had to stay in those lines. You were only allowed one bounce; you couldn’t dribble the ball. I used to hate it. I thought, “How come we have to do this? Why can’t we play basketball like the boys do?” This was in school. But when I was with the boys we didn’t play basketball but sometimes we’d take turns shooting. I liked playing with the boys better because, “Why not?” Girls these days do athletic things. But they wouldn’t let us. It was stupid.

Mitchell: Tell me about your education growing up. What was school like?
HERNER: I went to [?] school in San Jose through the fourth grade. Then started the fifth grade in Oakland. An interesting thing, which I didn’t understand, of course I understand it now, my mother said, “Don’t tell anybody—” Of course the war was on and you know what was going on in Europe. But I didn’t really know; I was just a child. I mean I knew the war was going on but I didn’t know any of the details. I didn’t know about Jews. I didn’t know about Kristallnacht and things like that. Mama said, “Don’t tell anybody you’re Jewish.” And I thought “Don’t tell anybody I’m Jewish? I don’t go around telling anybody I’m Jewish.” But sometimes I do. And I thought, “Oh, all right.” I didn’t understand her request. 

But I understood it later. I mean she was there during the First World War and who knows? She used to say, “I hate the Cossacks. They’d come into town and they’d ask for women and wine. And they would probably rape a bunch of women and who knows what my mother saw. I don’t know; I’ll never know. But I’m going to do some research to find out what happened in her particular town, in her shtetl. Just out of curiosity, not that it’s going to matter but. . . . so then I started Woodrow Wilson Junior High School. I graduated from there. It was a junior high so it was seventh grade through ninth. And then I went to Oakland Tech and that was 10th through 12th grade and I graduated in 1950. I wasn’t the greatest student. I didn’t have any place to study. My parents didn’t understand. You always hear about Jews and how they are with education and stuff. My parents, they didn’t quite get it. They weren’t really terrible educated. My mother wasn’t educated at all. I don’t know what kind of schooling, if any, she had in Europe, which is too bad. I know I wrote my absentee notes and signed her name (with permission from her). Except when I was a senior and when we were graduating and having the senior parties. It was traditional for all the kids in the 12th grade who were going to graduate to cut school and go to San Francisco and spend the day. So I did that, it was really fun. And then the next day when we went back to school the deans, you know there’s a dean of men and a dean of women, they called all the seniors in and interviewed them. They had to do this, of course they knew what was going on and probably didn’t care. Because I was a teacher. When I look back I can put myself in their position. Everybody wrote their notes themselves. I always wrote my notes because my mother didn’t write. And I signed her name. I knew how to sign her name. so she had my note and she asked me point bland did I cut school, or however she phrased the question. And I was like honest Abe [LAUGHS] I said “I cannot tell a lie.” I actually said that. “Yes I did.” I couldn’t look her in the face and lie to her. And I can still see her expression, all startled. And she said “Oh.” And she was telling me how wonderful I was but she had to punish me. And I said, “I know.” I accepted it. I was not allowed to go to the senior picnic and I stayed in school with the five naughty boys. 

Mitchell: And you were the only girl who actually told the truth?
HERNER: I was probably the only one in the school that told the truth. Being a teacher later I can just imagine what happened in the teacher’s room, “You won’t believe this. This girl actually confessed. I’m going to have to punish her because, you know, the rules are the rules.” So I didn’t get to go to the senior picnic but I had some art stuff to get ready because my art teacher wanted me to apply for some scholarships at the California College of Art. Something like that. It was not very far from my high school. I knew I wouldn’t get it but I wanted to apply anyhow. 

Mitchell: Tell me more about yourself as an artist.
HERNER: I had a terrific art teacher. And she quit teaching because she couldn’t deal with kids going there just to have an easy class. I mean she was an artist herself. I mean she was an artist. Not all art teachers are that great. They may be able to teach it but they aren’t necessarily talented artists. They might have some minor skills. The one thing I did with her…. Well we did amazing things. We did a fresco, mosaic, really fantastic stuff. There were only a few of us that did this because the other people, they weren’t there because they liked art, they were there because. . . . and then I took costume designing. I was very advanced in my concept of costume design. [laughs] in fact some of the stuff I thought of in 1950, like using denim, I t thought that’s really neat material, you could make great skirts and stuff. And it wasn’t used then. So I had some good ideas that I never followed up on. We made an experimental film and I did mine to the Russian Sailor’s Dance. And it took five weeks to do it. And so they showed it during an assembly.

Mitchell: What did you end up doing, did you go to art school?
HERNER: No I didn’t go to art school. The application for a scholarship was at the art school. I mean I did that experimental film which was really way ahead of its time. And that was because of my art teacher and not because of anything else. And it was good but, you know. But as far as actual drawing and stuff, there were kids that were better than I. You know, I’m not stupid. I didn’t expect to win anything. But she wanted me to do it and I wanted to because I like her.

Mitchell: I just realized we haven’t gotten to Oregon yet. Tell me how you came here. 
HERNER: Ok, that was much later. I graduated from college in 1967 and I worked in California for a while. And then I came to Oregon. It’s more complicated than I’m telling you but I’m not going to go into all that. I came here. Lewis and Clark College had a program for teachers of the deaf. And I came here to join that program. And so I came here and I went to Lewis and Clark College. Most of it was conducted at the School for the Deaf in Washington. And so I completed the course and then I decided. And I got a job at the School for the Deaf in Vancouver, Washington. And I stayed there for 26 years. So briefly that’s how it happened. 

Mitchell: Do you want to tell me more about your job?
HERNER: The first ten years I had the first grade. What happened was I was not going to stay. I wasn’t initially planning to stay in Vancouver. They had an opening and someone called me and said, “We have this opening in the first grade. This woman who was going to go there had a child with diabetes and she had an opportunity to get a job at a school closer to where he was going to school. You know she wanted to be close because with diabetes you never know when you might be needed. So she vacated that all of a sudden just before school started. So I was hired two days before school started and I wasn’t planning to stay. I t thought, “OK, for a while.” And I stayed for 26 years. So t that’s how I happened to get started there. So I lived in Vancouver for a while and then I moved to Portland.

Mitchell: Why did you move to Portland?
HERNER: Well I got married. [laughs] 

Mitchell: I do want to know about your Jewish experience in Oregon.
HERNER: I didn’t have much of a Jewish experience in Oregon when I was married because my husband was not Jewish. What we mostly did was play. We hiked and climbed and backpacked and cross-country skied. That was it, that was our life. I wasn’t involved with the Jewish community. I mean a tiny bit but not really. But when I became single that’s when I became more involved. And I met my girlfriend who’s a pediatric cardiologist because of another friend of mine. I joined the Mazamas, which is a hiking and climbing organization. In 1969 I joined them. And I was still married then. So I met her through this other friend of mine, another doctor, woman, and so I went to the opera with her. Susan was the woman I knew, she was an OBGYN. She wanted to go to the opera so I got a seat right behind them and then for some reason which I never hardly ever wore my star of David, I wore it that night. And the pediatric cardiologist friend said “Oh, you’re Jewish.” And I said “Yeah, are you?” So that’s how we became acquainted. So there was the beginning of my contact with being Jewish, her name was Cecile. So Cecile and I became friends, I started going to the services, the High Holiday services and things like that.

Mitchell: Is that what you mean when you say you got more involved with the Jewish community? Or can you tell me more about what that means? What other things did you do in terms of being involved in the Jewish community?
HERNER: I guess it was more a contact with other Jews. Being a little more a part of the community. I was never affiliated but I did go to High Holiday services. And I became acquainted with some other Jewish friends. And celebrated Passover with friends.

Mitchell: Where did you attend services?
HERNER: My friend Sue was a member of Neveh Shalom so for a while we went there. But then I think she dropped that membership but she belonged there a long time because of her children. They grew up there and went to religious school. Then we went to Havurah, you know? Oh, don’t ask me [laughs] they have a little synagogue I guess you would call it, near here, a couple blocks from here on the corner. Nice little place. And I met some friends there. And a couple of the friends that I met were folk dancers and I knew them before as folk dancers. I didn’t know they were Jewish; they didn’t know I was Jewish. Because when you’re folk dancing you don’t talk to anyone you just dance. You say “Hello, OK, let’s dance.” And then I discovered them and so they became friends. I just started to associate more with some Jewish friends.

Mitchell: Do you have other things about your life that you’d like to talk about that my questions haven’t allowed you to talk about?
HERNER: No, not really. I was involved with the Mazamas quite a bit. Oh and then when I retired I did a lot more travelling then I ever thought I would be able to afford which was nice. I did a lot of things with the Mazamas. I liked gang with them because we hiked as well. A little climbing maybe. I was never a big climber. Not too much to say. Then when I retired I thought, “Well, sure would like to do some Judaic studies.” But I thought “Well, that’s a fat chance.” I had no idea the opportunities in Portland. So I took some classes through the Jewish Community Center. They had some classes. In fact Judy’s husband, Steve [Wasserstrom]– I took a few classed from him. He was really good. They were short; they were like four sessions. Then I went to the Melton Group and I took some classes in Judaic Studies through, I think, the Jewish Community Center. And then I heard about the Melton class and the first year I didn’t go because I thought, “I don’t know what this is; it’s two years. It’s a big commitment.” And then when I found out more about it the second year that they were offering this program I went and that’s probably 20 years ago because I’ve been retired—it’s going to be 23 years. It’s hard to believe. So I did the Melton program for two years then the Melton had graduate courses and I did a couple of those. Then I started going to Portland State—before the program was firmly re-established. I think it was established by Rabbi Stampfer years ago. I don’t know the history of how it sort of went under or. . . . But it was starting up again and I was taking classes there. But it wasn’t like now. 

They didn’t have regular professors in the program, they didn’t’ have a Jewish academic program established. But they had courses, some of them were just one or two week courses in the summer which I really liked. So I started doing that and then they hired Steve Ascheim, he was the first professor. And I took just about all of the classes he was teaching at that time which were mostly reading. Then they broadened out and I kept going, I kept taking courses from the Judaic Studies program. And also others, not just the Judaic Studies program. So I’ve been going as long as was reestablished.

Mitchell: Tell me more about your experience as a student in the program.
HERNER: When I took the two years of the Melton class I learned a lot about the Jewish holidays because I really didn’t know everything. My parents gave me—there was no doubt in my mind that I’m Jewish, culturally and all kids of ways. There was no doubt but as far as Jewish education is concerned they were negligent. It may have been because of their experiences in Europe. When they left Europe it was not a good time. My dad was a little “pinko.” You know what I mean by that? [laughs] My mother, she was a rebel at heart. So they didn’t give me a Jewish education which is too bad. I feel bad about that because I would have liked that. So there was a lot I didn’t really know. The Melton Course sort of gives you a generalized—covering all the holidays and how weddings are. Although speaking of weddings, I went to a lot of Jewish weddings because my family they all married each other. In Oakland there were two separate Jewish families. Well there were three actually. And they kind of married each other because there weren’t tons of Jews. They weren’t related, they weren’t cousins or anything. But my Aunt Zeida, she married my Uncle Jules who was my mother’s brother. But her sister married a cousin of mine, one of her sisters, they had like nine kids. But they all married each other, these three families. And when I first got married to my son’s dad no one told me that I was supposed to marry someone Jewish, these things are understood, you just do it, I wouldn’t consider marrying anyone else. I was my own matchmaker, the person had to be Jewish, had to be going to college and I guess maybe there was something else, I don’t remember.

Mitchell: You had those standards for yourself?
HERNER: I had the standards for myself. My parents planted them in me through osmosis. It never was preached, “You’ve got to marry a Jewish boy.” NO one ever said that.

Mitchell: What do you wish they would have told you. When you say you wish you’d had. . . .
HERNER: My mother wasn’t really very literate. So at Passover we didn’t have a real Seder when I was growing up. We had Passover. My mother was a good cook and she made a wonderful Passover dinner. My dad would say a couple prayers but we didn’t really go through the Seder. I missed not doing that. Because it’s wonderful; it’s part of being Jewish. And a lot of other things. My mother never did the Friday nigh . . . .I don’t know how to do that. I don’t care about that as much but the holidays. 

Mitchell: What about your diet?
HERNER: They were not kosher. I assure you they came from kosher homes because of where they came from. At that period if you were Jewish you were Orthodox; there was no other way. They may not have called it Orthodox; you were just Jewish. 

Mitchell: What changes have you seen in the Jewish community in your life?
HERNER: When I was growing up—when a lot of immigrants came to this country they wanted to be American. They were Jewish, they knew that but they wanted to be American. So Christmas is an example. A lot of Jews had Christmas trees. I had a Christmas tree until I was about maybe 13 then my parents stopped, thank goodness. But it was weird because it was meaningless. I mean Christmas trees are pretty and they’re fun but it didn’t mean anything to me and I didn’t understand the complexity of these foreigners wanting to be American. So it had nothing to do with Jesus or Christmas. It had everything to do with “Americans have Christmas trees.” It was a holiday and so it was. . . it was not fun, it was confusing. And my Aunt Jenny, they had Christmas. . . . a lot of people had Christmas trees, a lot of Jews did. I don’t think that’s happening so much anymore. I think that’s changing. I remember being on a bus going somewhere on an outing and this guy on the trip was obviously Jewish, I mean his name and he looked Jewish—if you can look Jewish. [laughs] I thought he was Jewish and we started talking and he was very defensive about being Jewish. And some people during that period when I was going to college. They were defensive about being Jewish. I don’t know if they were ashamed or what the deal was. It was shortly after the holocaust, it wasn’t that long. I think I see less of that. I think more people are happy, forthright about being Jewish, they’re not ashamed or whatever these people were.

Mitchell: How did you respond throughout your life to your mom telling you not to tell people that you’re Jewish?
HERNER: Well that, you know, I accepted my mother as being a little different. No matter what she said, I just flowed with it. I didn’t upset me. But at the moment I was thinking, “Why is she asking me this?” And then it flew by. I didn’t pay any attention to it.

Mitchell: Did you find yourself throughout your life identifying more as Jewish?
HERNER: I’ve always felt Jewish. When I was in high school, I was in the library. I remember this specifically, there was a boy, his first name was Gerald. I didn’t realize it then but he was a holocaust survivor of a sort, they beat the Germans because they were in this country. And this was probably in 1949 so it wasn’t that long after the war. And he came up to me and he said, “You’re ashamed of being Jewish, aren’t you?” And I looked at him and thought, “What are you talking about?” In my head I was really kind of shocked and I didn’t know what to say at first. And finally I said something and I didn’t know the significance of what I said. I didn’t understand what I said. I said, “I’m not ashamed of being Jewish. What do you want me to do, wear a sign?” That shut him up, but I didn’t know about the yellow stars. I didn’t know the history that this went back centuries, a millennium that Jews were made to look different quite often. That was significant. I was really offended.

Mitchell: That’s interesting that when you came to Portland, when you went to the opera, you put on the Jewish star.
HERNER: Yeah, I still have it, it’s a little one because I don’t like stuff like that to be obnoxious. 

Mitchell: What do you think your parents felt about you growing up not identifying as…or what she told you, to not tell people that you were Jewish?
HERNER: It wasn’t that she was ashamed of being Jewish and I shouldn’t behave Jewishly or however that works. It was just during the war and my mother had negative experiences during the war and she knew that during the first war, when she was in Europe, antisemitism was around, I experienced antisemitism myself. Not physically but other ways. So she was just nervous about it. The war was still going on and she didn’t know. And who knows what people thought. It would be the children but their parents, the children hear these things and there was probably some of that going on…

Mitchell: Can you tell me some of your experiences with antisemitism?
HERNER: Well you’re always hearing comments, “Jew ‘me down” or whatever different things like that all the time when I was in school. Sometimes I would comment and sometimes I wouldn’t. But as an adult when I moved to Vancouver, Washington at that time it was a different scenario, even though it’s not that many years ago. And here in Portland too. And in Portland the Klan was here, did you know that?

Mitchell: I’ve seen some of the photographs.
HERNER: So there was a lot of negativity going on, a lot of prejudice. When I was doing my student teaching at School for the Deaf, one of the teachers and I were chatting about something or other and he came out with the same old attitude towards the Jews. He was talking about the Jews, how they own the movie industry and the banking industry. And I looked at him and I was thinking “give me a break.” This was in ’69, things had progressed a little by then. But not in this area at that time. This area was very conservative. So I said “You know that’s really funny. I’m Jewish and my father was just a mere tailor.” That shook him up. We actually became friends afterwards. But that taught him a lesson. 

And then another incident, one of my students came to me, really a smart kid, when I was in the high school because I taught the primary grades for 10 years then I moved to the high school and taught 16 years there. And one of my student came to me and he said, “Did the Jews kill Christ?” He asked me, point blank. And I asked him, “Who told you that?” And he said “Mr. So and So.” One of our deaf teachers, profoundly deaf guy from birth, really, really smart, perfect English, amazing guy. So I went to him and I said, “So and So told me that you’re teaching this and you told him this.” And we discussed it. And he looked at me and he said, “I won’t do it again.” And I believed him because he was a good person. He and his wife, they both taught there and we became friends too. 

And then one day I came into my classroom in the high school, the classes were small, and there was this narrow window and in mirror image there was, “Hitler” written up there and a swastika. And when I walked in there and saw that it was like, you know the comic strips where someone’s shocked and their hair goes up. That’s what it felt like. And I thought, “Oh my god. Look at how I’m feeling. Can you imagine what it was like on Kristallnacht? And then later which was much worse (and we never found out for sure who did it) they had to hire someone to clean it because they also marked the walls out there with spray paint. And I think I know who did it but here was no proof.

Mitchell: And this was at. . . .
HERNER: The School for the Deaf.

Mitchell: Was it a Jewish school?
HERNER: Oh heavens no, it’s a state school, I don’t think there was one Jewish student there.

Mitchell: Why do you think they wrote it there?
HERNER: Because they knew I was Jewish.

Mitchell: It was for you?
HERNER: Oh sure. It was in my room. They didn’t like me for some reason or other. They were mad at me, whoever did it. Maybe I gave them a bad grade which they probably deserved.

Mitchell: That’s horrible.
HERNER: It is horrible.

Mitchell: Can you tell me how they knew you were Jewish?
HERNER: Because I told them. The history teacher discussed the holocaust with the students a little bit. They had guests come with an interpreter that were holocaust survivors. And I discussed this with my students. And I told them, “You know what? You would have been a victim also because they didn’t like anybody if they were deaf or blind or crippled; they were exterminated also.” They were shocked. So it was good that this deaf teacher taught that. He did some other things that I didn’t like.

Mitchell: How do you feel about education about the holocaust in schools today?
HERNER: Well I think it’s good that they continue to do it. I don’t have any experience with it. I don’t know what individual schools are doing, or individual teachers might do things differently. So I can’t comment on that really. I think it needs to be taught continuously. Because already people are denying it and it’s harder to believe some of these things as it gets further away. And young people, your age, they don’t have experience with that. They may not even know about it. Even though it wasn’t that many years ago, when you’re speaking in an historical context, to a young person, that’s ancient history. Because the concepts are different. They’re too young to develop the concept of that time gap. So it’s good thing they have this here. It has to be taught. And I like the way the holocaust museum in DC and the one in Los Angeles, I just went to it recently, that they also point out that this is going on today, maybe not directed towards Jews but it doesn’t matter, it’s the same thing.

Mitchell: Tell me a little more about what you mean about that.
HERNER: Genocide is not exclusive with what happened to the Jews and they bring that out and they’re concerned about this still going on. So when they say “Never forget,” we shouldn’t forget because it can happen to anyone in any culture. A lot of people are in denial when it comes to things like this.