Max Birnbach

[Note: There is no audio for this interview.]

Turner: This is David Turner of the Oregon Holocaust Center’s Oral History Project. Today’s date is November 17, 1990, Portland, Oregon, and I’m interviewing Max Birnbach. The microphone is very sensitive and will pick up both of our voices. Maybe you could start by telling me a little bit about where you were born, your family, who was in it, parents, grandparents, sort of set the stage. 
BIRNBACH: I was born in Vienna, Austria on July the 7th, 1912, in Vienna. My parents came from very simple background.

Turner: Could you describe that a bit? 
BIRNBACH: My dad was born in Poland and he run away because he was supposed to go to the army, so he went to London, England. And I think he spent there three or four years, so he’s an unknown to me. He left London and came to Vienna. He had no background, had no profession. So he took odd jobs, whatever he could find. My mother was also born in Poland. And I remember it was a little shtetl by the name of Koperciedy [?]. I think it belongs to Russia now. And she came to Vienna as a young girl. She had a brother in Vienna who was older than she was. He helped her to come to Vienna. That’s more or less what I know about them and how they met, if it was the shidduch or, or I don’t know how they met but they got married in Vienna. I think they got married in 1911. And I was born in 1912. And only from papers which I read that, what dad worked, as a metal worker in a factory. What he did I don’t know. And my mother didn’t, was a housewife, yet I know, when I was born she took care of me in a little… We were living in Vienna. I …. 

Turner: Whereabouts? 
BIRNBACH: In a Jewish, more or less Jewish center. I don’t know if you know Vienna, Zwiete Beziert , and my dad and my mother were more, very religious. And I was brought up very religious. 

Turner: By that do you mean kosher? 
BIRNBACH: We were strict kosher, yes. And, two and a half years later, my brother was born. Across the street where we were living, the name of the street where I was born…. and the apartment that still exists today, the name was Meichgasser. Across the street from us was the Talmud Torah, was a Jewish school and a synagogue. It was very convenient every morning when dad went to synagogue, and I naturally was brought up very strict. So was my brother. 

Turner: Now, could you tell me what that means, very strict? 
BIRNBACH: Oh, I had to obey all holidays, like Friday nights, Shabbos. Friday night evening, we had to go to the synagogue with my dad, and we came back mother provided dinner and she light candles, and she made a prayer of the candles. And he was very strict about, no one could talk back to my father or not, and uh, sometimes I didn’t like it, but I obeyed what he said, and my mother sometimes disagreed with him, and you know how mothers are. And then l went to grammar school, but not in the Jewish schools, but the official school …. 

Turner: Well was it an all Austrian or Viennese? 
BIRNBACH: Yes, yes, but in the afternoon I had to go to the Talmud Torah which was across the street like, I said before, to learn Hebrew and read Hebrew and know how the prayers and so on. I didn’t like it because I was, I liked to play soccer, like how the young are now but I had to go. And then so did my brother. I remember the first day when I went to school, I was six years old, and it was a rainy day, and I wore a sailor suit that my mother bought me and it was wet and I slipped and ruined, not ruined but were dirty. My mother was very, very angry with me and had to take me home to change my clothes. This was as early as I can go back in my memory. So I went to school in Vienna in the daytime and in the afternoon, I went to school in the Jewish Hebrew School till I became bar mitzvah. 

Turner: Then you could stop Hebrew school? 
BIRNBACH: Ya, after bar mitzvah stopped Hebrew school and um, I remember the bar mitzvah, it was in our apartment, and as you know it took about a year before the bar mitzvah with the shammas. Ah, he taught me every day I had to go for lesson. And I had a bar mitzvah. After the synagogue we had a reception in our home. I don’t remember how many people, I would make a guess 20, 30 people were there. And the rabbi was there and so on. And I was told, “You’re on your own now, more or less, and a young man now.” And then I went to high school. You know in Vienna you go five years to grammar school and three years to high school. 

Turner: Now was this uh like the German gymnasium or is this a different … ? 
BIRNBACH: No, Biergeschule, that’s what they call it, ya. I think this may be similar, I wouldn’t call it college but I don’t know how … So when I was 14 years old, by this time my dad had a little shop or shop meaning a fabric store which he bought and sold fabrics for if you want to make yourself a suit, so you can buy three or four meters to make a suit, and then he sold some tailors who ordered from him. And that’s the way he made a living, but it were very, very little you know just a struggle to come through. When I became 14 years old, as you know you have to follow your father’s footsteps, so my dad said, “You better become what I am.” So he knows some people, introduced me. So I entered then a fabric store in Vienna and this was downtown Vienna where all the stores were and did my apprenticeship there, for three years … or was it four years, I don’t remember now. And three times a week at night I had to go to….we had a special, like a gymnasium you know, that was like community college. In order to graduate I had to go to the school there, so I went three times a week to school. I think it was four years, ya. When I was 18 years I graduated and then I was promoted to a, call it a Kamied what the name there. I get a higher salary and so on. The funny thing was, I cannot forget, I can… I forgot what happened two weeks ago, things in here in my business, but I remember things sixty years ago which I cannot figure out why, but the only way, my explanation is maybe they were important in my life. 

Turner: Like what are you remembering? 
BIRNBACH: Ah, I remember that when I graduated, my employer, and his name – I remember even his name, his name was Simon Picker, and he was Jewish and he called me in his office and congratulate me. Said, “Starting today you get more money.” And in Vienna you don’t, at this time you don’t get a check, you get paid in cash. Why do I tell you this story? Or whoever will hear this story is, when I come home and tell my mother you know, not my father, my mother “Now look how much money I got.” She said, “What are you going to do with the money?” I said, “I suppose I have to give it to you.” She said, “Absolutely.” So, but I do not remember how much money it was. Let’s just for talking…. let’s see it was three hundred shillings, this was like a dollar, a shilling you know. I gave all 300 shillings my mother because she really needed it, and I know she needed it. And she gave me 15 shilling a week spending money. And at this time they started already in the Nazi regime behind the scene, behind the scenery. The Nazi organization became illegal you know that organization. And I was aware of it … 

Turner: Now how to go back maybe a bit to kind of fill out your family, say more about how many children and … 
BIRNBACH: I had only one brother, that’s all. 

Turner: What was your relationship with him? 
BIRNBACH: My relationship with my brother was excellent, excellent, the only thing we had different view, what different view meant, I was more Jewish than he was. He was more a socialist, if this is the right word to say. 

Turner: Political? 
BIRNBACH: Yes, political. And I didn’t believe in it. I didn’t… as a young boy always in my mind I had you know I wanted become something one day. And the view of my brother was completely different, so we argued sometimes, in a friendly way. 

Turner: In the family, did you talk uh politics? Were there early knowledge of what was going on… in the family view? 
BIRNBACH: Yes, in the family my dad especially, my mother didn’t talk too much, but my dad talked a lot about the future of the Jewish people. And our neighbors….In the apartment house we were living, there were 33 apartments. Of the 33 were 3I Jewish families, and only one non-Jewish, who was the concierge, or who took care of collecting the rent, and so on. So nearly every night were people in our apartment. Mostly men, very seldom women. And my mother made tea or cookies, and they were talking about, at this time, about Israel. “One day will, my sons,” meaning me or my brother or their children from our neighbors, “will there be a Jewish state?” And this brought the argument, and most opinion of them was just the hope but they didn’t think it will every happen. They didn’t know how it will happen, but this was a dream that their children, meaning me and my brother, will be one day living in a Jewish state, but they had no hope that it will ever be ah, it will be a state. They didn’t know even the name, Israel. But they were very, that was their lives, the social lives in our family, in our neighborhood, were the future of the Jewish people. What will happen to our children? What will happen to our grandchildren? This was the thought of the whole Jewish neighborhood. 

Turner: Now was the entire neighborhood Jewish? 
BIRNBACH: Ninety-nine per cent. 

Turner: And was it a range of economic circumstances or modest or? 
BIRNBACH: I would say very modest. If I remember the landlord didn’t there live in this, were there living in our building. A matter of fact I have a picture at home from the house I was born because my son, Jack, went two years ago back to Austria. He wanted to see where I was born. And he took a picture. And uh, I had in mind to bring it to show it to you, but it wouldn’t mean anything to you, so I didn’t bring the picture. The house still exists. 

Turner: And that was an apartment house? 
BIRNBACH: Was apartment house. And coming back he said, “The owner of the apartment house were Jewish, and he was living in apartment.” So we all were looking up, he was a very rich man. Wow, was he rich. Couldn’t enter our mind, you know. 

Turner: How many rooms in your apartment? 
BIRNBACH: Ach. Two bedrooms, one bedroom where my parents lived and one small bedroom where my brother and I lived, and a kitchen, that’s all. 

Turner: Um, anything else occur to you about your early … I take it your grandparents … 
BIRNBACH: Oh, my grandparents I didn’t know. I met my mother’s dad, who was my grandfather, who came for a visit, and I remember, I don’t know I was four or five years old, I have no idea, six years, he looked to me like uh, if the right word is patriarch, with a white beard, very distinguished, wore a yarmulke, you know. I was more or less scared of him. I don’t know how long he stayed. He took me, I remember, one evening, put me on his knee and I was scared. And so that’s all what I know. The parents of my dad I never met. 

Turner: Do you know anything about them? 
BIRNBACH: I don’t know, no, I don’t know anything. No I … No I can’t, I have no idea. 

Turner:  What did this patriarch, you know what he did? I take it he was from Poland. 
BIRNBACH: Yes, he had mostly, you know, he was from Poland like what I said, this little shtetl, a little village, ah, he … what he makes a living I have no idea what he really did for a living. Oh, my mother had a sister, a younger sister which she brought over to Vienna. And I was very close to my aunt; she was my aunt you know. She married … and this was more a made marriage, you know. I was very close to her. 

Turner: What sort of person was she? What was she like? 
BIRNBACH: She was a warm person and I think she loved me like her own child. And my mother and her were very close. My dad and her were not too close, but my mother was very close. And she lived in the neighborhood a block away from us, so I saw her nearly every day. 

Turner: I’m curious what language you spoke at home, school … 
BIRNBACH: Oh, German. My mother and dad spoke Yiddish. 

Turner: So did you learn Yiddish? 
BIRNBACH: I learned it, not in school but just to listen to them you know. And after they found out that I understand Yiddish they spoke Polish or Russian. My parents spoke Yiddish beside German, Yiddish, Russian, and Polish, which I did not never learn, either Russian or Polish. So if they understand that they cannot speak Yiddish, they want to say something and didn’t understand, then they spoke mostly Russian or Polish, which makes me mad. “Did you say something now what I didn’t, not supposed to know?” “We’ll let you know if you should know this.” 

Turner: In school first tell me how you became aware of antisemitism. 
BIRNBACH: Yes, I became aware as long, before I went to school I had no idea. But the moment I start in school, the grammar school, and I don’t know if you’re aware of it, they had a religious class, so I don’t remember was it every day or two, three times a week they had a priest, they because Austrians were Catholics, and on the other hand, so all whoever were Jewish had to leave the class, and were concerned what the priest took care … I don’t know what was going on there. I mean in each classroom was a crucifix on the wall, and in the class I went in the class were maybe 30, 35 students. Maybe were six or seven Jewish kids. I mean so we had also Jewish classes, which were conducted by a Rabbi. 

Turner: In the school? 
BIRNBACH: In the school, in different class. And he brought to our attention that we should not get too aggravated or not excited, or not talk back because we will find out that Jewish people (and I don’t recall the exact words what he says) that they don’t like us, “They don’t like you and you will be very upset when you hear, but don’t talk back. Just be polite and swallow down.” And such was first I heard the “Jew!” you know, “dirty Jew, your father is a dirty Jew.” And we had a soccer team and I was not allowed to play on the team because I was Jewish. And I was a good soccer player. And so we created a Jewish soccer team. We called it the Maccabiah, and I was maybe nine or ten years old, and I played soccer until I was 18 in the Jewish team and we played all over Austria. We played against non-Jewish groups too you know. From this when I became aware about, “Why did they hate Jews?” Father says, “What did they do wrong?” And I had very good friends, non-Jewish friends but still once in a while it slipped out from them, “Max you, but you are fine Max, but Simon, you know, he’s a dirty Jew. He lies, he steals.” I said, “How you know he does it?” “Oh, we know, we know.” So this was indoctrinated by their parents to them; there’s no question in my mind. 

Turner: Let’s see. Anything more about the family? 
BIRNBACH: I had an uncle also. This was my mother’s brother. And remember I told you he brought us to Vienna. But he was more the upper class. And I don’t know what he made a living. He had three children. He had a son and two daughters. My uncle had not a good relationship. He never came visit us. But on holidays, whether it was Yom Kippur or Passover, my mother took my brother and me; my father refused to go there to visit the uncle. They were living about in the Zvanzig Beziert, which means the 20th district of Vienna. We visited them. They invited us for dinner, so once or twice a year went over to see them. We were scared naturally there a bit. He was very strict. I had no feeling for him and he had no feeling for me. And his children were older than I and my brother. So that was the whole family and my aunt was also naturally a sister of my uncle, you know, but no relation whatsoever. And the only reason I make a statement now is because he was financially better off, so he was looking down on us poor people. He doesn’t want to have anything to do with us. 

Turner: Let’s see, I sort of rerouted you back to your childhood when you had gotten to about 18 I think. You were saying something about your early awareness of the Nazi party. 
BIRNBACH: Yes, before I want to say my dad had a sister in the US, in New York, but I had no idea, you know, is they poor, are they middle. I really had no idea. And if they had any …how to say … writing each other I don’t have the slightest idea. The only thing I know on my bar mitzvah, again I’m coming back now. I’m 79 now, this goes back now when I was 13, you know, I got a letter from New York, from my aunt congratulating me to the bar mitzvah and was a $5 bill in there. And I never saw a $5 bill in my life. And this was, I cannot, like if somebody comes today and gives me a check a hundred thousand dollars, I mean that type of … And we kept this I don’t know for how long. I gave it to my mother. If she kept it a month or a year I had no idea, but finally she cashed it in. So this I remember about my aunt in New York. I found out later on that she was very, very poor. Yes, she was living in New York in this Jewish neighborhood. I forgot the name, where all the peddlers are in New York, and uh, lived on the fourth or fifth floor … 

Turner: Delancy Street? 
BIRNBACH: Yes! Delancy Street, yes. And so that’s the only thing I know about my so-called relative or relative of my parents … 

Turner: So, you finished up your apprenticeship. You mentioned something about becoming aware of the … 
BIRNBACH: Ya, you see the way I became aware was, that some [tape ends abruptly]
…. and we were very good friends. Every Friday night he ate dinner with us in our apartment. And every week on Sunday my dad gave me, or my mother was it gave me (this was even before I had a job) some pocket money, I don’t remember what it was. Was it a dollar, or a shilling? I don’t recall. But she gave the same amount to my friend, to him too. We played soccer together when we young boys. I remember all of them. We even dated together. He was my best friend. He was blond, he was non-Jewish, and when I was about 15 or 16 years old, I got suspicious a little bit because we went out to movies or I went to, to his apartment and we played chess. And suddenly he said, “Max I can not go out with you tonight.” I said, “Why you can’t, why you can’t?” I forgot his name, I think it was Hans, but I don’t know exactly if this is right. He said, “I cannot do it; my dad said I have to do whatever.” And I became suspicious. And I found out later on that he joined the Nazi movement. And later on more and more he stepped up and up and up until he became an SS officer when he was maybe 18 or 19 years old. And I was not aware of it, had only a hunch. But the relation with him and me was very, very good. Never let me know, you know. This was my earliest that I found out beside what I listened to my parents and the friends of my parents when they had got together at night and had a glass of tea with a cookie, talking about Jewish people and about antisemitism, what had happened to us and so on. But nobody had the slightest idea what the future will bring to the Jewish people in Austria under Germany. 

Turner: So, go ahead, describe what went on, up to what, 1930 about? 18 years old… 
BIRNBACH: Something like this, ya. I went every morning. I walked to my job and this took about 15 to 20 minutes walking. Very few people had cars at this time. To take a taxi was a holiday. Couldn’t afford it. I was very happy in my job there and my boss was [phone rings], was Jewish and um [phone rings]. And this was in, I think, in 1932, 1933. See my dad on Friday usually left after lunch his little shop to come home to prepare himself for Sabbath. He took a bath, shaved, got ready to go to the synagogue. And my mother started to prepare Shabbat. And he also said to me, “Why don’t you come home earlier? I want to go with you to synagogue, that we go together.” I said, “Dad I have a job, I don’t know if I can do this.” He said, “Listen, your boss is Jewish and just talk to him. Tell him I’ll let you go out an hour earlier. I want you to come home …” Now like I didn’t shave at this time you know. But change clothes is [?] But I was afraid to talk to my boss. But one day I talked to him. He said, “Max, this your job; forget your father. You stay here, and that’s it.” So I told my father and he was very angry but he didn’t say anything. 

Only about a few months later he called me in his office. He said, “You know Max you talked to me about … maybe I was wrong. If it’s not too busy in the shop, just take off an hour before and go home. I leave it up to your good judgment when you leave, just tell somebody …” (We had about 10 or 12 employees) “just tell somebody. He said, “You leave and it’s OK with me.” So I didn’t take advantage of it, but I left once in a while. And again what happened I’m telling you now is … this changed my life on this evening. It was 1932, 1933, I don’t know. I went home and in front of my house were about 20, 30 people standing around like in a circle and somebody was standing against the wall. And it was all Jewish people and I said, “What’s going on there?” So I went naturally to look what’s going on there. So what I saw my heart stopped. I saw my dad against the wall and my friend who ate every week in our apartment, was fed by my parents, got money, weekly money allowance, from my mother, he pushed my dad against the wall, had a knife in his hand, took his necktie and I came to this moment there he said, “You dirty Jew. We don’t need you here. We want you out. We going to kill you all. And I show you what I’m going do.” He put his knife against his throat, but he didn’t … and then he cut off his tie. And my father was white in his face. And he was my age, and so how old was I there, I was 20, 21, something like this. And I lost all control about myself. What angered me was all the people standing around, didn’t do anything. Just. .. They were scared too, but nobody … there were middle-aged people, elderly people, women, but nobody did anything. And I will never forgive them, whoever they were. 

So I pushed in to and I went to them and pat on the back my friend. I said, “Hans…” or was it “Tony …”, I think “Tony” now it comes to me, “… what are you doing? Are you mad?” He said, ”I’m going to kill you too because you’re Jews,” and then was like a red handkerchief like in Spain you have a red handkerchief. I lost control about myself I make the story short. I beat him up. I broke his nose. I broke his eardrums. I knocked out several teeth of him. And he, I mean I got injured too you know I had a blue eye and he hit me on the front. But they had to call the ambulance because he more or less were, I think I killed him. So they took him to the hospital and the police came and arrested me. So my dad and some witnesses went to the police and told the story. So the police released me. And then it came to a trial in court. And my father had a lawyer, a Jewish lawyer, and he told him, “I have no money to pay you.” He said, “I don’t need your money.” We went to it and the judge said, “Not guilty,” and gave him a warning “If this happens once more we will ….” I don’t know what exactly the word what she said to him, you know, “Don’t ever do this again.” When he left the courtroom he came to me at the lift, “I won’t have nothing to do with you anymore. I hate you. And I will pay you back. And if it takes years, you going to pay for this.” And I said to him, “You want me to beat you up, you want me to break your nose again. Say the word and I break it right now.” It was the last time I ever talked to him. But then they got, not only he, but they got organization became more and more aggressive. They didn’t hide anything. And so with black boots, and a black pants, with a coat over, coming back from meetings. I and my friends were all aware of this and I brought it to attention my parents. I said, “It’s very bad. I’m afraid you know what will happen.” My father said, “Don’t worry.” He said, “There are 200,000 Jewish people living in Vienna.” and the population were two million, so about 10%. “Never, don’t worry.” So this the, really the first step in my life I could see what could happen to us Jewish people. I’m going to in, in, incline … say something now which maybe have something to do or not something to do. 

Turner: All right. Anything. 
BIRNBACH: I have a sixth sense. And the sixth sense in my opinion kept me alive and, and if I wouldn’t have the sixth sense I would not sit here to talk to you now. And to the story later on I will bring it up more again. So there were marches, demonstrations, and by this time Hitler in 1933 came to power. And more and more came dangers and dangers and dangers. They had a meeting in our synagogue, the Jewish people said, “This can never happen in Austria, never.” And then the regime in Austria be… was natural aware of it, said, “It’s just a matter of time that Austria will be taken over by force by Germany.” So they called the election and you know probably Hitler, you know history, the name Schussnicht. He was the chancellor in Austria. And he called the election, and the night before the election were huge demonstrations, hundred thousands and thousands of people were demonstrating in the inner city of Vienna which is called the first Beziert in the Ringstrasse, where the Parliament is and so on. It was a hundred thousand people marching, “Vote for Schussnicht, vote for Schussnicht.” And I was old enough to march it too. This was a 9:00, and 8:00, 7:00, it lasted till midnight. My parents were shaken that I did this you know. And I did it. 

Jewish people already started to get afraid. But nobody in the mind had just to leave Austria. But other people, this was 1938 we are now, but 1933 when Hitler took over Germany, there were Jewish people in Vienna who were well off, who had the foresight, had the money, and left Austria. They went to England, to the United States, to Australia. Some unfortunately went maybe to Hungary or Czechoslovakia or wherever. But they had the money. You could take all your money with you– all your assets at this time. Number one, they didn’t have anything. And number two, once I remember very well, I talked to my dad and said, “Dad, what would you say if we leave Austria?” But I had no idea where. He said, “Where you want to go? I said, “I don’t know. But I don’t see anything coming up here.” He said, “You’re a stupid little kid. Nothing will happen here. It’s not going to be too good, but nothing will happen here.” Well naturally I listened to him. The evening when we had the demonstrations for election lasted till midnight. At 5:00 in the morning the next day, Hitler marched into Austria. No resistance whatsoever. In six or eight hours he was in Vienna. Now why do I tell you this story? The same people 99.9% were marching again on the same street in the same location, the first Beziert in the Ringstrasse, all them saying, “Heil Hitler. Welcome to Austria. We love you.” And naturally it was the biggest shock to the Jewish community in Vienna. Couldn’t believe it. So now I said to myself, and my father reminded me, said, “What are we going to do about you with Tony, and remember five years ago.” I said, “I’m not scared. Don’t worry about it, I’m not scared.” 

I think he occupied Austria, I think it was in March seven or eight of 1938. So every day I walked to my job. Nobody bothered me. At the end of March, and I don’t know the date, and when I walked to my job a black Mercedes stopped, stopped next to me, and four SS men in black boots, you know the uniform, with the initials there, came out and saw me, “Pssst, papers.” So I showed my papers. “Are you Jewish?” I said, “Yes I’m a Jew.” “What do you do for a living?” I said, “Salesman.” “You mean you’re stealing money from the Christian people.” I said, “No, ” He said, “You don’t all work, you never worked in your life. We going to show you how … In the car with you.” So they drove me, and I don’t know if you know Vienna. Ever been to Vienna? 

Turner: Once. 
BIRNBACH: OK. There is the most beautiful synagogue in Vienna, in the first district. It’s the main synagogue in Vienna. It still exists today. And I remember even the street. It’s Zeitgasser. That’s the name of the street. And they took me in there and took me in, in a room which before you get married you sign the papers there. And the rabbi is there and so on. And they have a beautiful piano and beautiful crystal chandeliers there. They took me there and there were, I don’t remember, but quite a few other Jewish people there, mostly elderly Jewish people. I thought I was the only young man in this time. Could be other, but I don’t remember this. And then one of the German SS men came to me and said to me, “You said you worked.” I said, “Yes, I do.” He said, “You see this here?” It was the crystal chandelier. “I want you to clean this. I give you one hour. And if, if you don’t clean it, God help you.” And all the other people had to leave the room. So I went on top of a table for there was a chair and I had a handkerchief in my pocket. And each crystal I wiped off with my handkerchief. If it took an hour, two hours I don’t remember, but then he came back. He put on white gloves and touched each crystal. He said to me, “You’re a lucky guy; you cleaned it. Now we going to teach you music.” I said, “What does it mean, is it …” He said, “See this grand piano here.” I said, “Yes.” He said, “Sit down.” Then there were, I don’t know eight or ten other SS men there. And around me … if this is the piano, and I was sitting here you know. He said, “You know how to play piano?” I said, “I never played in my life.” He said, “We want you to play it.” I said, “I don’t want to play it.” He said, “We don’t ask you if you play, you going to play.” So behind me here in a circle were ten, twenty Jewish people, mostly elderly. And behind them, also ten or fifteen SS men, with horsewhips. And was one SS man here and one SS man here. 

Turner: One on either side? 
BIRNBACH: If this is the bench, you know. He said, “Play.” I said, “I refuse.” Then they took what you call it, not a revolver but a rifle butt, and hit me on the head here, so I fell… Whatcha call this, ahh… 

Turner: Keys… 
BIRNBACH: On the keys. And naturally I made a noise. And when I made a noise, this SS man here told the Jewish people to dance. And they whipped them so they jumped. So every time they hit me, and he and then the other one, I fell down, and made a noise, and, and, and this time, they whipped them. So they call it dancing. So it went on, I don’t know, if it’s five minutes or five hours, I wouldn’t know. Until I fainted, and broke both of my teeth in the front and some were damaged there. The only thing I remember then they poured a bucket with water over me until I came to. I was naturally in terrible pain and they put me in a car, and they put me someplace outside Vienna, not far, I think it was a barrack where the soldier were under Austria regime. They put me there in a room with like prison. There were three, four other boys like me. Also beaten up and so on. And if l didn’t come home my father tried to find out what happened to me. He called my boss and he said, “He didn’t show up.” And so he went to the police and then he found out what happened. My dad want that they release me. This all, I found out later, was arranged by my ex-friend, this Tony. He arranged this all. He was not there, but he arranged it. So my dad went to the police and he knew a lieutenant. He said, “Help us out.” “There’s nothing I can do about that.” “What they going to do with him?” He said, “We don’t know.” So every morning … twenty, thirty boys, forty boys, men. They lined us up. There were a row of people here, SS men, a row of people here, and we had to run through, I don’t know, was it 500 meter, 200 … And they whipped us. The faster you run, the less you get hurt. Now I was in prime of my life [phone ringing] but every day, naturally I was hated you know but every day I was told and I found out somebody was very badly injured and somebody eventually died and so on. This was our breakfast. When my father found out about this, so he went to this … ,”What can you do to get him out?” And then this got infected now … 

Turner: [can’t hear question] 
BIRNBACH: Yes. So he said, “How much is your business worth?” It was a little store. I have no idea. Let’s say the business worth about $20,000, I have no idea. He said, “I tell you what I do. I know somebody, and I’m not allowed to do this, but if you sign the papers, that you sell it to somebody, which was a high SS officer, that you received what- ever number it said, then we will be able, not to release your son, but get him to a dentist to help him.” And my dad said, “Yes I have a dentist, someone can bring to this dentist.” And my dad signed the paper. So they picked me up, two men and said, “We bring you to a dentist.” And this was the building. There was an entrance here and an entrance here, you can go in from here and can go in from here, and said to me, “You have one hour, and God help you if you’re not back.” So I went here, I don’t know right away. I didn’t go up but out the other side. And my brother was there with a car. Actually it was a taxi. And we drove to the railway station. Westbahn Hofis the name, you probably heard of it. And he had a little suitcase, and we went in the rest room there, give me other clothes; he had false papers, non-Jewish names, and he had, a button for me with a swastika, so like … And he had a button said he’s a high SS officer. Now he doesn’t look, didn’t look Jewish. He was more blondish, and don’t know. And then we went in a train, and we want to go to Switzerland. So we went, he had a plan to get to Innsbruck by express. And in Innsbruck they’re changing trains to a local station till the Swiss border. The idea was, what my brother had, is, the SS is controlling all trains on the Swiss border. So, it goes to Innsbruck. Nobody bothers us, and then we took a look at trains, we went to the Swiss border, maybe took two hours, I don’t remember, and stopped in every little city, not city, village or whatever, you know. And then after half an hour, another stop, six SS men came in the, in the train. And when they came in they said, “Any Jews here?” So I said to my brother, his name was Eda (and this corporation which I own now is called Eda Corporation, doing business as Roses, so I called this company after him.) I said, “Eda we’re lost.” He said, “I don’t want you to say one word, let me do all the talking.” And he had German newspapers, and he said, “Just read the paper; don’t say a word.” Now you know what train like this here, you know. So we were sitting here you know. He was sitting here. Here were young people were sitting all here. And they came in here. “Any Jews?” And then my brother didn’t say a word. “Papers, everybody papers.” So he started, said, “Don’t be scared what I’m saying.” He said to me. And then he start yelling at me, “Thanks God, my comrades are here.” He said, “These damn Jews, I’m sick of it, the look of them.” But so loud, that these people here said, “He wants their attention.” And they come right away over to us. I said to myself, “What is he meshugge? Is he an idiot? Now, now we are lost.” So they came to us and the moment they came to us he started yell them, “What is your name, don’t you know who I am? How you see? How you behave? Don’t you see? Don’t you know how to say, ‘Heil Hitler?’” These people which I found out are only strong when 100 against one, and they were already scared, they clapped the heel together, said, “Heil Hitler.” He said, “What’s your name?” He started to shake. “Give my your name.” So he said, “My name” whatever. “What’s your name?” He said, “Get rid of all the Jews here, and leave here.” They arrested six or eight Jewish boys and they left us alone. So he saved my life. What happened to them, I have no idea. But unfortunately they probably lost their lives. So he had then the name of a tavern who smuggled people over to Switzerland. So we had no baggage, nothing, you know. We had a white raincoat and a light raincoat and we went. Ya, oh my brother had a suitcase, ya he had a little suitcase. And we went to this tavern. And when we came in was nobody there. It was like a tavern here. We said, “We want to talk the owner,” whatever the name is I forgot the name. “What do you want?” “He’s a good friend of mine and I want to talk to him.” “What’s your name?” He said give him the wrong name naturally. So the owner come in. My brother said, “Can you talk to us?” He said, “Who are you?” He said, “We’re a good friend of yours.” He said, “I never saw you.” He said, my brother said, “Yes, but I know you very well.” My brother said, “Let me do the talking.” He said, “Can we talk to you alone?” He said, “No.” My brother said, “You know if you don’t talk to me it’s going to cost you a lot, because I going to tell the police who you are. You smuggle Jewish people over.” And he showed him the false paper. He got the shake. “I want to talk to you. You better.” He said, “Yes, sir.” So we went in the other room. “We’re Jewish; we know you smuggle people over. I want you to help and don’t tell me you don’t do this because you gave yourself away now.” He said, “OK, I help you, but if you tell anybody that I helped you, I will deny it, and you know who they’ll believe, not you, me.” My brother said, “Yes, I know.” And he had 1000 shillings. Let’s say $1000. He said, “This is for you to bring us….” 

Turner: Your brother gave it to him?
BIRNBACH: Gave it to him. He said, “Oh you don’t have to pay no money.” He said, “This is your fee; you charge it to everybody. I want be fair.” Then he got a little more comfortable with him. “Gee you have a nice watch.” I didn’t have, my brother. My brother said, “You know what, I don’t like the watch at all here.” “No, no, no.” “Please take it.” Naturally he took it. Now two things he could do now. He took the money and a watch. He could pick up the phone, say, “I have two Jews here,” and denies everything. Keep the money. But he didn’t do this. He brought us some food in there. And his son was about 14 years, 15 years. “You stay here…” This was maybe 7:00 at night, something like this. “…till midnight and my son will bring you to a point where you can cross the border.” And then he said and I will never forget, “And God bless you.” So what I want to say is seven or eight million population in Austria, there were some good there too. I’m not saying all were bad. If it wouldn’t be for this man neither my brother or I would be alive, or other people. There were some good people. So at midnight the young boy came in and it was pitch dark. He said, “Just follow me.” And we went to, it was a wood, a wooded area we went to. I don’t remember how long- a half hour, 45 minutes, an hour, I have no idea. Then we saw a little river, which was the arm of the Rhine. He said, “You see this river. This is Austria and this is Switzerland. You have to walk through; it’s not deep. You can walk. The water comes till here. Every 15 minutes the German patrol comes by here with dogs. When they pass here then you make no noise and you go slowly, walk slowly over the other side. Then you’re in Switzerland.” And he also said, “God bless you.” And he said, “You better take off your white coat because it will shine up.” So we took the white coat and gave it to him, to the boy. So we went in the water. Now, I could not swim. I just want to tell you that. I had no idea about swimming. My brother was a, what you call it, not a first aider. If you drown, he jumps in help you, what, what’s the name? 

Turner: Lifeguard? 
BIRNBACH: A lifeguard, ya. He was a marvelous swimmer. So we walked out, walked from here there maybe walking ten minutes, eight minutes, something, I don’t remember. But with my luck, in the center …the German patrol was already gone, we saw them… was a hole, and I, and I stepped in the hole and went under water. I naturally made a noise and I start to yell, “Help!” In a moment the people, the German patrol here had big spotlights looking on the water, and they saw us and start shooting at us. So my brother hit me in here, so more or less I fainted, and then under water, and he went under water too. He put, I don’t know what he did, I think pulled my hair or whatever, and swam to the other side… over there. Now when they were shooting they alert the Swiss patrol. They were here and they were shooting back at the Germans. So they stopped shooting. And then they came over there. In my mind it was a year, but maybe one minute or so. And we come out and my brother he helped me up you know and he said, “We made it.” There were two German soldiers here with a police dog, in my opinion like a, like a horse with his fangs growling. And I said to him, and I will never forget this, “Eda, we did not make it. There are German uniforms, so but they were 10 feet or 10 meters away from us. He said, “Don’t worry you’re in Switzerland, we are Swiss soldiers.” They had the same uniform, except on the helmet they had a white cross. “You’re in Switzerland, you’re safe.” So we walked with them a half an hour, I don’t remember how much, to a little border house. And they had a fireplace going there so we can dry our clothes. They made hot chocolate for us, and give us some bread to eat. Can I stop now? 

Turner: Sure. 
BIRNBACH: I want to go to the bathroom. 

Turner: What is it like to relive …. 
BIRNBACH: When Shirley Tanzer called me up, I said, “Shirley, you know I know you for so many years, but I don’t want to do it.” And she said uh “Max, people your age mostly dying off, you’re one of the last.” I said, “Don’t tell me I have to die.” “But, you have to do it for the next generation,” so [loud clap) I said, “OK.”

 [Interview pauses and resumes) Turn it on? 

Turner: Yes, sure. 
BIRNBACH: I forgot where I was. 

Turner: Hot chocolate. 
BIRNBACH: Ya, ya, so they give us hot chocolate, and bread, and were very nice, there were two, two people, one was a lieutenant, and one was a soldier, very nice… But you know on the same night I think 25 young people, all our age, came over the border. 

Turner: Is that right? 
BIRNBACH: I don’t know how but they all came over and they all were brought over to this cabin and they give them all hot chocolate and bread and all. So we were a group of between 25 and 30 people in this neighborhood. Then the officer said to us, “I’m sorry to inform you,” he said, “we have to send you back next day. We a neutral country. We a small country. We cannot allow you to stay here.” So we were all scared to death, and we talked, “What do we do?” I thought that I was the oldest in my opinion from the group. I didn’t know anybody of them. And I said something about, “Do you know Eda, let me be the speaker. Let’s convince these people. It’s no use that all 20 or 30 speaking, if just one person. Let me talk. I want to talk to the officer.” So he, everyone was scared to death. Nobody wanted to.T were happy that I had the courage to speak. My brother said, “Do you want me to speak?” I said, “Eda, you save my life, let me do the speaking.” He said ,”Why would you do this, Max?” 

Now I come back to my sixth sense, because I have a sixth sense that I think I can be successful. He said, “OK, Max, go ahead.” So I went to the officer and said, “Listen, as long we will live we will not forget you because you saved every our life. And I understand you follow only orders. This I understand. But we will not go back. The only way we go back you put us against this wall and shoot us. We prefer to die to Swiss bullet, not in a concentration camp.” Because I was already there in concentration camp. Not much but I was already. There were rumors going on. Or I say in a camp, I don’t know if it’s a concentration camp, you know. “We will not go,” I said, “Don’t argue me or hit me. I have to say that.” He said, “Yes.” “You have children?” He said, “Yes.” “How would you feel if your children, would happen to them what, what you, happened to us?” He said, “I would not like it.” I said, “Why you do it, then?” He had tears already in his eye, so I said to myself, “I’m on the right direction.” Now I got the idea, see again, my sixth sense. I said, “Sir, what is the next city from here?” He said, “St. Gallen,” You probably heard the name. It’s a city of 50, 60, 70 thousand people. I said, “Why don’t you take the telephone book. There’s a rabbi in St. Gallen…” (I had not the slightest idea. This was a gamble on my part.) “Call him up. So let’s look in the telephone book. Would you mind at least to do this?” And I was praying there should be a rabbi there. And they look it [loud clap] and there was a rabbi there. He called him up, maybe 4:00 in the morning, whatever the time was, and when he got him on the phone, I said, “Please let me talk to him.” So he said, “Herr Weite, there are 20 or 30 Jewish refugees here and one man wants to talk to you.” So I said, “Rabbi, my name is Max Birnbach. We just escaped. We just came over the river. We’re wet; we’re hungry. The officer wants to send me back and we refuse to go back. We need your help.” He said, “Let me talk to the officer.” What he talked to him, I found out later on. But he said to him, “I am a Swiss officer with the rank of major in the Swiss office … in Swiss Army. I ordering you not to do anything until I am there. I will make you responsible. I going to court martial you if you do anything to these boys.” Then he said, “But you’re responsible.” He said, “Absolutely. I will be there as soon as possible.” He was telling me later on he was yelling at him, you know, so he got scared and said, “OK, I’ll wait until you come and then you and I make the decision.” So at 7:00 in the morning or 8:00, whatever the time, e came with a bus. What he did, he called the State Department in Switzerland. I call it State Department. I don’t know who he talked to. “I want these boys for four days stay in Switzerland,” And they give him the OK. So they brought the bus. He signed the paper, the release paper to the officer, and we drove to St. Gallen. And we all brought in to the police headquarters, whatever it is. They were very nice to us, gave us breakfast. We were already eating like wolves. 

And then he said to us “You have to stay. You’re under Swiss law now. You’re all come, we’ll put five or six in different cells. You have to treat very nicely. Don’t worry about, I’ll do the best I can.” So for four days we was safe. So I don’t know if you’re aware, when I was told this, and I cannot prove it is true. When Germany occupied Austria, Switzerland, the government knew that the Jewish people, some Jewish people try to escape to Switzerland. And it’s a small country and they didn’t want it. They didn’t want Jewish people in there. And by the way, they didn’t like Jewish people either, at least the Swiss, the German part of Switzerland. But he called a very high official in Bern, which was the capital of Switzerland, and told him the story. Now, I was told when Germany occupied Switzerland, that the parliament or whatever they call in Switzerland had a meeting, “What are we going to do? If we refuse everybody, we will look very bad in the eye of the whole world, especially the United States. So we going to have a lottery.” Everybody crossed the border on the first of the month can stay. Everybody crossed the… let’s see we are now in this, in November… Some comes on November the fifth, November the sixth, November. .. has to be sent back. Only who comes on first. I just take the number first. Maybe it was the number 18th. When we crossed the border and I forgot the date. Let’s say it was, I think it was August, I think it was the 13th, but… So the parliament said, “Everybody comes on the 13th of this month can stay in Switzerland.” And I was 13th, and so we were allowed to stay in Switzerland. Now if this is true, I cannot prove it. Or was it the know-how of the Swiss major, the rabbi, I don’t know. But they said we can stay in Switzerland. You can imagine the relief it was on us. And we were put in a bus and we drove about two or three hours. It was not a hotel. They called it a Gasthaus, which means a large tavern. It had several rooms for tourists. They had a gymnasium there and a little restaurant. So that’s where they drove us and we were 30 people, 40 people. So we arrived there and then in the gymnasium they put all straw on the floor, and they put some white sheets over the straw, and they had blankets and a pillow, and that’s where we were sleeping. And they fed us three meals a day. They had good food; we were hungry. And we stayed there maybe two, three, or four months. I don’t remember. And we were taken in by the Swiss army to do manual work. What we did is we went to a camp. They established camps. They had a barracks, you know, so we were sleeping there. We were sent in, in woods, felling trees, making roads, and all these things. Nobody of us was accustomed to this work, so after a short time my hand were full with blisters. They got infected, was for all bandaged you know. And the food was very sparely, was just enough to give us strength to work. And I was hungry from morning to night, you know. This was in 1938. I was born in 1912 so what, I was 26 years old, 27 years old. Then they had a kitchen there which they were cooking. [There] was a Swiss chef and he had a crew of six or eight people who washing the dishes, and splitting the wood, and cleaning the kettle. But it was a nicer job than being in the woods so I said to myself, “I wish I could get a job there, maybe get an extra slice of bread.” So I went to the commander– it was a captain who was in charge. We were 250 Jewish boys. I said, “Could I work in the kitchen?” He said, “Why would you work in the kitchen?” I didn’t want to say I’m hungry. I didn’t want. “Because I like the kitchen. I like kitchens, I like restaurants.” That’s all what I said. He said, “No.” So we worked. At 5:00 in the morning we had to get up and at 6:00. I mean they had to line up and they called names, “Birnbach.” “Here” “Schneider.” “Here” “Everybody here.” Then we went in and got the breakfast usually consist of a hot chocolate and coffee, sometimes we get a piece of cheese, and we got a, you know, in Europe they have a round loaf of bread, you know, and we get a quarter of bread. This was for the whole day. We can eat it all or we can save, that’s up to us. So we went in the wood. Then during the lunch time come a truck and they gave everybody a bowl of soup, more or less the bread it was up to us, that’s what… Then at 5:00 we marched back. We walked back. And we washed and cleaned ourselves. And then they give us in barracks and we got dinner. The dinner was cleverly simple but lentil soup and maybe coffee or maybe chocolate uh… Then we can go. They had a little hall where we can play chess or play any games. And we went. We had to go to bed at 8:00 because everyone was so tired we fall there. And the moment you hit the straw, the bed, you were out like a light. So this was five and a half days. Saturday we worked until 12:00. Saturday afternoon was free, and Sunday was ours. Everybody was looking forward to this. Then we lined up again. Then we came back from the woods and they call all the names: “Birnbach.” “Here” “Schneider.” “Here” And one day, this was not Saturday, he said, after taking the roll call he said, “Somebody’s sick in the kitchen; we need one man just for the weekend. Is there anybody wants to come?” Everybody looked, “This is an idiot. We can hardly stand on our feet. We’re not going work in the kitchen.” They didn’t say this but this what they meant. Nobody. I raised my hand. Everybody looked. “What kind of idiot is he?” “Birnbach, in the kitchen.” 

So I said, “What I’m supposed to do?” You know they had kettles like in the army. That’s how they cook in there. So I was supposed to clean the kettles, I was supposed to split the wood, that’s firing the kettle, I was supposed to wash the dishes, you know, this was my job. But I get a second piece of bread. I get a second bowl of soup. I was happy. And I worked the best of my ability. On Monday morning I went back at the roll call. Then he called “Birnbach.” “Here” “Back in the kitchen.” So the chef was more, more happy with my work than whoever did the work before, so the man who was there had to go in the woods, and I was in the kitchen. But I did the best I could. I scrubbed the kettles; I split the wood; I washed the dishes. And then after a week, I got a little confidence with him with after week, I said, “Why you take me?” He said, “You do a much better job.” And then he asked me, “What did you do in Vienna?” I said, “I have a little restaurant, and I like cooking,” I said. “So that’s why I like the kitchen.” But I had something in my mind, which I didn’t tell him right away. He said, “You do a good job, Max. Do you like it here?” I said, “I like it very much.” But he had a girl friend. He was not married and I knew he wants the weekend off. So I waited one more week or two more weeks, I don’t remember, and then I approached him and said, “Officer” or “Sir,” whatever I don’t know what I said to him, “Can I talk to you?” He said, “Sure, Max.” I said, “What would you think if you teach me cooking? And then you can take off … because I have knowledge of cooking, and then you can take off weekends, and you can be together with your friend and with your family.” He said, “You think you can learn this?” I said, “Listen, you’re the best chef I ever saw in my life. You can teach me. And I tell you what my mind is. If it’s OK with you, Saturday afternoon I go in the city and go to the library and get some books and learn there, so I read the book, the cookbook, and with you I think I can learn it.” He said, “You know, Max, it’s a good idea.” And that’s what I did. And this happened to be Locarno, which is the Italian part of Switzerland, Il Lugarno in Italian, and we, our camp was in Locarno. And I went to the library every afternoon, on Saturday afternoon, and I read cookbooks, and he was teaching me. It was simple cooking, you know. I mean anybody with a little brain…. it were no big deal. Took me two, three weeks that I know it, but I didn’t tell him this. So I waited about two months then I said to myself, “Max, you can do it.” And I want to do a better job than he did because this was all my brother’s, you know. I said to him, “Why don’t you let me cook dinner tonight?

But you stay with me.” So I cooked. I don’t know what it was. And everybody says, “Well, gee it’s much better than usually.” They asked me what, what I said, “I don’t know what he did.” And then about two weeks later I said, “Why don’t you leave tonight?” It was Saturday. “And let me cook dinner? Just give it a trial. “How we going to find out” He said, “You know, if something’s wrong, I get the blame.” I said, “Believe me, if I wouldn’t know what to cook tonight, and you write the menu, I would not do it because you mean a lot to me.” He said, “OK, I take the gamble.” So I cooked, and they all knew. I let them know that I was cooking. They gave me a standing ovation. So Sunday, when he came back, he found out. He said, “I’m proud of you.” I said, “No, I’m proud of you. Everything I know you taught me.” So from this moment on, he didn’t cook anything. I cooked everything, every meal, three meals a day. And then I said to him, “You know, where do you buy all these things? Where you buying the vegetables, the meat, the bread? Why don’t you show me where you buy it, so maybe you want to take a vacation for a week, and I can do this for a week.” He said, “You know Max, that’s a good idea.” So he took me and he introduced me and I had the freedom, during the week I can go to the city, which I couldn’t do before, you know. So I know the bread man. I know the vegetable man. It was all farmers. I know the meat they brought from, from farmers and so on. So more and more he stepped back. He took off a week, and I thought one day the major, I think it was a major, of the camp called me in the office. See that chef was a captain, was a chef in the army, so he was appointed to this. So he called me now and said, “Max, you do an excellent job. I going to promote you. I going to write a letter to Bern and tell them what good a job you do. You capable to do that so many refugees coming to us, we need chefs, and we want make you a chef.” I said, “OK by me.” I was in Seventh Heaven. I said, “You think I can do it?” I played humble. He said, “Absolutely, you can do it.” I said, “OK, it’s OK with me.” So about a week later somebody from Bern came over, a Swiss man and interviewed me. He said, “We open up a new camp now in the Swiss part of Switzerland for all Dutch officer who escaped from Germany or from France to Switzerland, and we will make a camp, we have so, we have about two hundred Dutch soldiers, officers they want put in a camp. We need a chef.” 

Turner: Now this was roughly what year? 
BIRNBACH: 1940. I make a guess. 

Turner: So how long were you in this first camp? You were there a couple of years? 
BIRNBACH: Ya, I was there maybe a year and a half or something, maybe two years, I don’t remember. So they transferred me to this Swiss part with all Dutch officers and such. But they didn’t like me. Because they think I’m German or Austrian they were anti-German. They had a high officer and I cooked to them. I made the menu. I talked to him. I said, “Listen to me. I’m Jewish. I’m not German. I’m with you. I’m here to do the best job I can do. I cook anything you want to. You tell me what you like. But I don’t have…. They gave me a budget. They gave me two Swiss franc per person for three meals.” Like two dollars now. “If you can get me money, I cook anything you want to if I’m capable, and I think I’m capable.” So he went to the ambassador in Switzerland from Holland, came visit him at least once a week. And this man told him this, what I told him. So he came to talk to me, and said, “Max, I understand you say.” I said, “Yes, I’m Jewish. I’m on your side. I like to help you people. He said ”OK, we have a holiday coming. I don’t have any money but it’s the Queen’s birthday,” You know that’s the national holiday in Holland. I don’t know if you’re aware of it, but that’s what, and I want a special meal on this day. And I tell you what could you cook?” I said, “My specialty” I said, “is wiener schnitzel and I do an excellent job, but I can never do it with this money.” He said, “How much money you need?” I forget what I said. “I’ll get you the money.” “But I have to talk to my commanding officer; it’s not up to me.” So he talked to the commanding officer, and he said, “I don’t care.” So I made, I remember Wiener schnitzel, potato salad. I never forget it. And a vegetable. And the cake, I bought in the village from a baker. And they gave me a standing ovation. And two days later this ambassador came to me and thanked me. He gave me hundred Swiss francs. This the same if you gave me, I don’t know what, $50,000, I don’t know. I said, “I’m not allowed to take the money.” He said, “Nobody has to notice.” So he gave me the money. So I stayed there maybe a year, I don’t know how long I stayed there. 

Turner: And you were now separated from your brother? 
BIRNBACH: Ya. My brother (oh this I forgot to tell you) was engaged in Vienna. I should have told this before but I can tell you anyway. And he said to me, “Max I want to bring Mullie, (this was her name) over to Switzerland. I said, “How about Dad and Mother?” He said, “Sure, let’s bring all the three over.” Now, there was a dentist in this little village when we arrived or where we stayed about three or six months there, which they invited some immigrants to the house for dinner or lunch, all these people there in the village. And they invited me and my brother. We had dinner there. And they happened to like us, especially me. And he had an uncle who was trading, buying, selling cattle. What’s the name? 

Turner: Cattle trader?
BIRNBACH: Ya. That’s what. And he travels all over Switzerland to the German border. And I told him, “I want to bring my parents over, could you help me?” He said, “Yes. You tell them to come to this little city on the Austrian border. I think it was Hohenau and I go over, and I bring them over.” So I wrote a letter to my parents and they didn’t censor the letter. I said to him, “Come on this night.” This was at Christmas.” Because he said, “They will. They’re relaxed. They don’t pay any attention. Let them come on Christmas night.” And it happened to fall on a Friday night. And tell them to come there. Tell them to stay in this district, and I … don’t give my name, tell them somebody will approach them, because I know the name.” So I wrote my parents, and said, “Be on this date there and a man will approach you and will call your name, and he will bring you over. But don’t say this to anybody. And tell Mullie the same thing, come bring … because Eda want Mullie over there too. You know what? My parents refused. For two reasons: Number one, it was Shabbat. They want not do this on a Friday night. They don’t want to do this. They want do it a day when it’s convenient for them. Number two, they didn’t think, “We don’t want to leave Austria. This will be over, we don’t believe the …” But my sister-in-law now she came and he brought her over, and he brought her over to us and my brother married her, three, four weeks later. And she lives now in Brussels, still alive. My brother passed away many, many years ago. He refused to come to the United States. I’m jumping ahead because I don’t know how long we can go on. And I have a nephew and they both living in Brussels. And hopefully in the near future I will go and visit them. And my nephew speaks seven languages. And he’s a TV announcer in Brussels for the state, you know. They don’t have private TV at all so he’s an announcer for the state.

Turner: Now I think that there’s a story maybe that you haven’t told, and that is I am so impressed with the organization of your brother and your family to get you and him out. How did that happen that you knew to go through the dentist’s office, that your brother would be there, that he would take you …? 
BIRNBACH: You see my brother was living with non-Jewish people. He was not living at home. In a moment I will tell the rest of it. They were very good friend and they were hiding him. And my dad told him, “Listen, Max will on this day at this hour.” He knew because the officer told him, “ .. go to the dentist,” so that’s how my brother was waiting and he know the time and he was waiting there. 

Turner: You did not know he was there? 
BIRNBACH: No, no. But I guessed. Again call it sixth sense. I said, “What I have to lose?” I go through and see if somebody out there. And then I saw Eda. If not I run away. I would not have gone to the dentist. What I would have done I have no idea, but I would not have gone up there. To answer your question. 

Turner: Yes, yes. 
BIRNBACH: OK 

Turner: And your parents, they stayed behind? 
BIRNBACH: Yes, my parents stayed behind and they were, after I escaped, you know, they arrested my parents and deported them to Auschwitz. And you know what happened to them. You know they burned them, you know, and often alive, you know. I sent food from Switzerland over, parcels, and clothes, my brother and I. Sometimes, and they wrote back, in little cards, which I still have. That sometime they arrived. They got it and some they didn’t arrive. And on the cards they wrote, “You nit [?])” You know neither my dad nor my mother could read or write, so somebody else was writing for them. On every card he wrote “Thanks God that you’re both alive. What happened to us doesn’t matter.” 

Turner: So they were resigned to …. 
BIRNBACH: They were resigned, yes, but they did not know. Or maybe they did know, I don’t know, what will happen to them. And then suddenly, stopped. Don’t I know what happened. My whole family, I think this were, once I counted, sixteen or seventeen, and the only … Oh I have to go back to seventeen, let’s see if the number’s seventeen. My brother and I escaped, and my uncle, which I, remember I said, who had three children, they escaped, but one girl did not make it, but one, actually it’s an aunt of mine, right, or is it a cousin? 

Turner: Cousin. 
BIRNBACH: A cousin… On one day, the boy and the girl came to NY, which I did not know at this time. So they transferred me from the Holland, from the camp, or before they transferred me, again two people came, a little funny, tragic, but funny. Said, “Max, we open up now a home for pregnant women in …” not Geneva, what’s the other city? 

Turner: Zurich? 
BIRNBACH: No, nicht, near … it’s in the French part, 

Turner: Lausanne? 
BIRNBACH: Lausanne. “We open up a home in Lausanne which used to be a pension for English girls who wants to learn French.” So they, they housed them there and told them there was a beautiful building with a beautiful garden there. They made a home for pregnant immigrant women. About 50 or 60, and they need a chef, so they approached me. They said, “We want you be the chef there. It’s going to be much nicer to you than here. You cook only and we will give you more or less guidelines, what kind of diet, and so on. We want you be the chef. The condition is you have to behave yourself.” And I said, “I’m very happy to do this.” I didn’t know that my sister-in-law were there because she was pregnant. I didn’t know. When I arrived there I found out that she was there. So I was the chef there and there was a lady who was in charge of the whole building, but this was not a camp. And I lived, I got a gardener’s house, was a little primitive house with a bed. Were all trees… it was, for me was a paradise, compared you know. It had a bed. My brother was in a camp working in woods like I used to. So I talked to my sister-in-law. I said, “Mullie I will do anything I can to bring him over as a helper to me in the kitchen.” Because I had 10 or 12 Russian women who escaped over the border and they were helping, peeling potato, splitting wood, so I thought maybe I can get my brother if they allow men in this camp. So I talked to the lady. She said, “You’re the only man, and you know why we cannot allow this.” I said, “Listen, his wife is here. What you are afraid of it? He can live with me.” She said, “I can not.” But she did. What she did I don’t know, but one day my brother arrived and worked with me in the kitchen. But you know what I did? I was the so-called big shot. I was the chef. I didn’t split wood, I didn’t, I didn’t clean kettles. I told these Russian women with sign language what to do. The only thing I did is the cooking. But I didn’t allow my brother to split wood. I didn’t allow my brother to clean kettles. I did that because his hand you know was all like hide you know, so I did it. The only thing I let him do is eat, I gave him double portions and so on. And he was living in with me. And then time was going on when, when, my nephew was born. They allowed that he and my sister-in-law can leave, and they transfer him to Zurich. They rented apartment and so on, and the Jewish counselor of Zurich supported them. And the funding came from the United States the money. The HIAS, I think it was. 

Turner: The place that supported him was funded by some place in the United States? 
BIRNBACH: Some, I don’t know who it is. So and I was very happy that he and my nephew, and I said, “I insist on one thing. I want to mention this.” I said this to my brother. And I told you my brother was a socialist and he doesn’t, he didn’t believe in Judaism. I mean he was a Jew, but he didn’t believe in anything. I said, “You know Eda I want you to do something for me and for your parents.” He said, “What is it Max?” I said, “It’s a boy, we should have a bris.” You know what a bris is? He said, “I’m a Jew. I know Mother and Dad want to do it. I know you want …. OK to do it.” So we went there to the rabbi there, and they get a mohel and he did it. But what I did not know at this time, unfortunately, that the child was a bleeder. Hemo… hemophiliac. We didn’t know this.. and my brother didn’t know this. You know it’s transferred always through the woman, not through the man. That’s what I was told, I don’t know if it’s right or wrong. So she had no idea. So the boy got it so if he marries and has children, if it’s a boy, he’s a bleeder, if it’s a girl, it’s nothing. He is now, I think 45 or 46, and he made a decision not to get married, because he gets every day or every week ….? otherwise he wouldn’t be alive…. 

Turner: So this was an emergency with the bris. 
BIRNBACH: Ya, but we didn’t know this.. 

Turner: Yes, of course not. 
BIRNBACH: Otherwise I wouldn’t have done this. So this I want just, so they moved to Zurich and I was in the camp till the war was over. 

Turner: This one with the pregnant women? 
BIRNBACH: Yes. And I learned, I went to night school and learned French, you know. 

Turner: Now were you all the time improving your cooking skills? 
BIRNBACH: Yes, yes, because I had to cook different and according and sometime for special diets. And then I do the buying of it out, and bought whatever to the butcher, and … I was in complete charge. They gave me a free hand. 

Turner: Were you free to go anywhere in Switzerland or did you have to stay in the camp? 
BIRNBACH: I had to stay. It was not a camp, but it was … you can call it camp, yes, but if I want to go in to town to buy, nobody told me, “No.” It was not a strict regulation like before. 

Turner: But you couldn’t say “Well I don’t like this, I want to go to a … ” 
BIRNBACH: They would have arrested me. 

Turner:  They would have arrested you.
BIRNBACH: Ya. Because I had a piece of paper, which was I was a refugee, I’m not allowed to leave the city of Lausanne, and I stay in this home, and so that’s a piece of paper I carried with me. 

Turner: How did things change when the war ended? 
BIRNBACH: When the war ended, they told me I have to leave the home. “Where would you like to go?” I said, “I would go to Zurich, because that’s where my brother lives.” So they send me to Zurich and my brother picked me up from the train, and he had a little apartment. It was not enough room that I stay with him. And I didn’t want to stay anyway, so he found, next block or wherever a little room, was in a what you call this, uh ……

Turner: Oh, like a, yes a loft, an attic, or something 
BIRNBACH: An attic, yes. So I stayed in the attic, yes. In a family you know that were stay there. So I had to report to the police after a month. Every month I had to report to the police, and they said, “Listen, the war is over, we want you to go back to Austria.” I said, “No way will I go back to Austria.” “If you won’t go, we put you in chains and we put you back to Austria. There’s no way we will let you stay here.” You see the only way at this time, I don’t know how it’s today. If you’re a Jew you can only stay in Switzerland if you have a lot of money. As a refugee was very different. Some stayed I understand some. They had some connection. I had no connection, didn’t know anybody. Then I said again a white lie, “What do you want me to do?” I said, “I have relative in Israel, and I have relative in the United States, and I will write to them, but I will not go back to Austria.” He said, “OK, we give you six months.” And I said to myself, “What are you going to do, Max?” Then I went to the Jewish counsel in Zurich, and told him the story. He said, “You know Max, they will not let you live here. You have to learn a trade and we can help you.” I said, “What kind of trade? I don’t know what I mean, textile, fabrics means nothing. If I go to Israel or I need a trade.” “We can make you a shoemaker, if you like shoes.” I said, “I don’t like this.” “We’ll make you a tailor.” I said, “I don’t want to be a tailor.” “I want to make you a carpenter.” I said, “I don’t want to be a carpenter.” I don’t know, one or two more things I said, “No.” He said, “I’m sorry, you have to do something. Then we can go to the Swiss government and say we teaching you this and maybe they give you a year to learn this.” 

And then I got an idea. I said, “I want to learn, I want to go to a hotel and restaurant school. That’s what I want.” He said, “No way. This cost a lot of money. They will never allow it, never.” I said, “Can you help me?” He said, “No.” I said, “OK.” So I, on my own… in Zurich was a restaurant school, which still exists. This a restaurant, and a school, so they don’t have employees. The students are cooking and serving and washing dishes and do whatever you do in a restaurant. Bar tending, whatever. And only daughters and sons of restaurant owner or hotel owner allowed to be students there. And it’s very expensive. And I have no idea if you asked me how much it cost, I have no idea. So I asked for the director. I said, “I don’t have the money.” He says “We have not a child, we have not a change here, forget it.” So I went, I went back the Jewish counsel and said, “Tell you what I did.” And then said, “Who shall I approach now for the money?” He said, “Go to the Swiss government, and they gave me an office where they… and talk to them.” I said, “What you got to lose?” So I went to the office there and said, “ You’re the most famous country in the world in the hotel management business. I want to learn this, and then I want to leave your country, either to Israel or the United States. Then I have something that I can make a living. Now I don’t have anything. And I want you to help me.” He said, “Sure, what do you want?” I said, “I want money.” This costs say $10-12,000, I have no idea, I just take a number out the air. “I want you to give me $10,000.” “Are you, you nuts? We don’t give you $10,000.” I said, “Listen, I work for you many years, from 1938 till the war was over in 1945. I worked in the woods. I worked in camps. I worked as a cook. I work as a chef and you paid me as a chef 30 Swiss franc a month.” There’s just the two of us. “You paid your chefs over 1000 Swiss franc a month; look the money you saved. And I have letter here to prove for you how happy you were with me. Now that’s a reward; just pay it”. He said, “Absolutely not.” I said, “Would you pay the half if the Jewish community would pay half?” He said, “No.” Then I went back to the Jewish counsel and told him the story. I said, “If you pay half, then they will pay half”. He said, “We cannot do this.” I said, “Listen, number one, it’s not your money; the money come from the United States, and I need your help. At least give me a letter that you’re willing to pay 50% ” He said, “We cannot do it” I said, “You cannot do it, but talk to other people.” So he said, “Come back next week or whatever.” So next week I come back and he said, “If you bring us a letter from the Swiss government, if it’s 50%, we’ll loan you the 50%.” So I said, “OK.” So I went to the Swiss government. I said, “If you give me a letter that you pay 50%, the Jewish counsel will give me 50%.” “Why should we give you the letter? Let them give you the letter. If they give you a letter, we give you a letter.” So I went back to the Jewish counsel and said, “You have to give me the letter. I mean at least that.” So they gave me a letter. So I gave the letter to them. Then that they said, “OK.” So I got the money, 50% from the Jewish counsel, 50% from the Swiss. 

And I went to the hotel and restaurant school. I will never forget the first day. This was not room and board. I had to be there at 6:00 in the morning and stay till midnight or whatever. And I had to rent a room in the neighborhood. I found a room, also in the attic, which was the cheapest, you know. And the first day in school, I think were 36 or 38 students, girls and boys. I was the only one who was not Swiss and was the only one who didn’t have a dad who had a restaurant or hotel. So compared with them I didn’t know absolutely nothing. They were active as waiters or cooks in the parents’ business. So the first day, they asked questions. And he asked me a question. “Max, what is the most important thing in a restaurant?” I said, “This is an easy question. The answer, the food.” He said, “You’re absolutely wrong. You will never make it in our school if you have this idea.” I was flabbergasted. And he asked everybody another question. Then he came back to me. He said, “You want to know what the most important thing is?” I said, “Yes.” The most important thing in a restaurant,” You see how many years is back this and I still know it. “is a clean rest room and a clean mustard pot.” 

Turner: Mustard pot? 
BIRNBACH: I said, “Why is that?” “You know why?” I said, “No.” If you go in details, if you take care of the rest room, and you take care of the mustard pot, then you’re going to take care of all the other things which are important.” That’s why I do it all my life and never forget it. And when they have meetings, I tell this all the people. So I graduated from the school with honors. I was the second or the third best. You see I started … whatever. .. they didn’t care. They know, you know,… I mean I was two, I thanked the director there and said, “Could you help me find a job?” He said, “No, this is up to you. We have nothing to do with this.” So I took the paper, the newspaper, and I wrote 38 restaurants…. “Dishwasher, busboy, waiter, bartender … whatever there is, I want a job.” Three restaurants answered. Two in Zurich and one in Biel, maybe you heard the name. It’s on the French border. So I went to the French, I went to the German. I lived in Zurich. I went today. After he talked to me, he says, “The job is already taken.” That means, “We don’t want you.” So I took the train, and went to Biel. And asked for interview with the owner of the hotel. This was the largest hotel in Biel. The name was Elite. I never forget that. And I talked to the owner, was a typical Swiss man, with a mustache there, gray hair, very strict, and he listened to me. He didn’t say a word, just listened to me. Said, “You know what? You went to hotel and restaurant school. I don’t know how much you know but I don’t hire a Jew.” I said, “Why is that?” His name was Lende … you see, it just came in my mind … I said, “Mr. Lende, why?” He didn’t have the right answer. “May I ask a question, Mr. Lende?” He said, “Yes.” “Do I have horns?” He didn’t answer me. “What is different between you and me? You’re a religious man. I don’t know if you’re Catholic or Protestant. And I’m Jewish. I’m the same human being like you.” He said, “Listen Max, my grandfather started this hotel. And I’m close to 60. Ao the hotel I don’t know over a hundred years old. And neither my grandfather, neither my dad did they ever hire a Jew. AI will not hire a Jew.” I said, “Will you give it some thought. Please give me a chance.” And I could see he already I, maybe it was my sixth sense and I started after him. I said, “I sent out 38 letters, I got only three replies. You were one reply. What it means to me, you have a heart. Why don’t you give me one month? That’s all what I ask, one month.” He said, “You know Max you going to have a terrible time here. Everybody will hate you because you’re a Jew. Nobody will like you, they can make your life miserable.” I said, “Mr. Lende, I give you one promise. Whatever they do to me, I will never come to you. And after a month, you make the decision, not I” He said, “Just a moment.” And he left the office. 

In five or 10 minutes later, he came back. And I found out later why he left the office. I don’t want to say it now. He said, “OK, Max, you have the job. One month. When can you start?” I said, “Mr. Lende, I have to go by Zurich, and I have a suitcase, have to give notice to leave. Can I start whatever, 10 days or two weeks later?” He said, “OK, Max.” So two weeks later I came at the front desk. “I want to talk to Mr. Lende.” He said, “Who are you?” the man said. “I have a job here.” No, naturally on my accent right away they know I’m not Swiss. “You have a job here?” I said, “Yes.” “So, what you going to do here?” I said, “I don’t know. I have not idea. Mr. Lende will make the decision.” So he went to Mr. Lende and he was, had a higher position, probably asked him … I never found out …. I’m pretty sure I’m right. “Who is this, a Jew, you hire a Jew?” “I gave him one month, if he cannot do it we let him go.” So they put me in a room with two cooks. See I had room and board, and thirty dollars a month, 30 Swiss francs to make the living. And the tips. So he said to me, “Would you read the menu to me?” And the menu was in French, and I was pretty good at this time. And I read the menu. “OK, we start tomorrow. I tell you what I going do with you. One week as a waiter, one week as a room waiter, one week as a bartender, one week as a banquet waiter, and then ….” “Mr. Lende, whatever you say. If I cannot do the job, you let me know. I will do the best I can.” So I worked as a waiter. And I make nice tips, you know. I made some days 20 or 30 Swiss francs a day, which is a month’s salary. And after a week he said, “You know, Max, you do a pretty good job, stay on there. And then the time I go on vacation.” So I stayed there maybe six or eight weeks in the dining room, and then he said, “Somebody goes on vacation in room service. I want you work in the room service.” So I reported at 6:00 in the morning to whoever was in charge, the head waiter there. I could right away see that he didn’t like me. He said, “Listen, Max, if I catch you on the fifth floor you automatically dismissed.” I said, “Sir, I will only do what you tell me to do. Otherwise you can fire me. Never do anything against your will.” But I was anxious to know what’s going on the fifth floor. The girl who takes the room waiter order, you know somebody you call, you have a room you call down, “I want scrambled eggs with bacon, and coffee, and croissant,” whatever. And she takes the order and she gives it to whoever’s on duty. And she was born in Vienna, this girl. And she liked me. And I said, “What’s going on the fifth floor?” I forgot her name. She said, “Max, on the fifth floor is one of the richest men for the United States, has the whole fifth floor, and nobody waits there, only the head waiter himself.” I said, “Why, why is that?” I was naive. “You don’t know why?” I said, “No.” “Because the way he tips. He tips unbelievable. And that’s why you’re not allowed. And don’t do it behind his back.” I said, “I will never do it.” 

But the headwaiter didn’t like me, so he talked to these two cooks who lived with me to do something to hurt me. So I went to bed, whatever it was, 10:00, 11:00. What they do one night …. if this is a newspaper, you fold it like this, and you can imagine how tired I was, you know. They put it between my toe and … if this the toe and … like this. I was so tired, I didn’t feel anything, and lit it. My whole foot was in flame. And I naturally, from the pain. I start to yell, you know, and then they got so scared they put the blanket over. I don’t have to tell you what happened to my leg. I couldn’t put the shoe on, you know, they were scared. They said, “Please, don’t tell Mr. Lende, please don’t tell Mr. Lende.” I said, “I will not tell Mr. Lende.” And they called over somebody for first aid. They put on some gauze. And he said, “How you going to work now?” I said, “I have to put a slipper on. I mean I cannot walk. I mean I can’t put the shoe on. But I want to, I will report.” So one day I have a leather, it’s like a shoe, but … so I put this on, so I could walk, but I was limping. And Mr. Lende saw this right away. “What happened to you, Max?” I said, “I fell down.” “Come in my office. Take off the slipper.” “Why?” “Take off the slipper!” So I took it off. “Take off you socks. Who did this to you?” I said, “Mr. Lende, I remember when you hired me, I promised you never to complain; and I keep my word.” “You’re fired, you’re lying to me now, and I don’t like lying. You tell the truth now, or you don’t have a job. I want to know who did that to you.” I told him the truth. I said, “Mr. Lende, please do not fire these people.” “Why not?” I said, “I tell you why not. I earned their respect now if you don’t fire him.” He said, “Max, you’re absolutely right. But I’m going to give him a lesson.” So what he told him I don’t know, but from this day on, I was on the same level with them. They regarded me because I didn’t report it for them. And Mr. Lende told them, “If it weren’t for Max, you both would have lost a job.” And we became very good friends, except the headwaiter. He still hated me. I can feel it. One day the girl who took the telephone called me and said, “The headwaiter is sick. Who’s going to bring up to the fifth floor if this man wants the breakfast?” I said, “It’s up to you, not up to me. You could call the other waiter, whatever you want.” So she called Mr. Lende. “Mr. Lende, Hans … ” whatever, I forgot the name … “is sick and the, and the Man….” You know who the man was? Mr. Bulova. Bulova watch, the owner, this was the fifth floor. He had a factory there who made all watches in Switzerland, and he brought it to the United States and just put in the case. But the watch was made in Switzerland. I didn’t know who Mr. Bulova was. If he said Mr. Birnbach, Mr. Bulova the same thing or Mr. Schneider, Mr. Smith, I don’t know. So Mr. Lende told the girl, “Send Max up.” She said, “I cannot send him up.” He said, “Why not?”” Oh, (the name of the headwaiter) said he’s not allowed. He said, “I’m the owner; send him up.” So I knocked on the door, “Come in.” He was sitting at table in, in the … I close my eye and see it now…in the silk gown and I was shaking. If you ask me why I have not the slightest idea. He looked at me and said, “Who are you?” I said, “I’m the waiter here.” He said, “How long are you here?” “Maybe two months, three months.” “I never saw you. Why not, why didn’t I see you before?” I said, “Because I’m not a room waiter.” I didn’t want to tell him why. I said, “The room waiter they send him away sick, so I was told to wait just today on you.” “You’re not a waiter.” He said to me. “By gosh, I’m losing my job now.” He’s the best customer. All the furniture, everything was flown in from New York. So he stayed one month in New York, and one month in Switzerland. All his furniture when he leave, was closed… nobody allowed to use the room … and he paid the rent, whatever it was. “You’re not a waiter.” “Yes sir, I graduated from hotel and restaurant school. I bring you tomorrow, I show you my certificate that I’m ….” He said, “I, I’m not, I don’t want to see anything. You’re not a waiter, but bring the lunch. He wrote down what he want. I said, “He’s going to call Mr. Lende. Max, you’re finished.” Naturally he did not call Mr. Lende. So lunch he came and sat down. And still I was even more nervous, and he said, “I’m going to eat dinner tonight and I want you to have dinner with me.” “You…” I mean I didn’t say this. “You, Mr. Bulova, want to have dinner with me, the elephant with the flea?” I said, “Mr. Bulova, I’m sorry I cannot do it.” He said, “You know who you’re speaking to?” I said, “I’m speaking to a very nice gentleman, that’s all what I know.” He picked up the phone “Mr. Lende, this is Artie Bulova. I want Max to have dinner with me tonight. Is this OK with you?” Mr. Lende told me this later. “Absolutely, yes sir, yes sir.” He said, “Order for you whatever you want to.” 

So I had dinner with him. He said, “Tell me about you.” I said, “What do you want me to tell you?” Before this father, when I was a little boy, my dad said to me, “You know, Max, one of these days I will not be around. Wherever you will be, all over the world, doesn’t matter where, if you meet a Jew, the first thing say to him, ‘Shalom Aleichem.’ and if he’s a halfway decent Jew he will say, ‘Aleichem Shalom’ to you. Remember this, Max, doesn’t matter where you be. That’s what I want you to do.” And I never forgot, and never practiced this. So coming back to Mr. Bulova now. He said to me, “Who are you?” I didn’t say I’m Jewish. I said, “I’m an immigrant, I went through a little bit…” I told him about Vienna, what I went through, and thanks God Switzerland here had said my life, and went in camp, went and attended restaurant school. “This is my first job. And I hope, Mr. Bulova, you help me …” and again my sixth sense “so I don’t lose the job.” “I don’t see any reason why you should. You should be, a matter of fact, you should get a better job what you’re doing now.” At breakfast he gave me 10 Swiss francs, at lunch he gave me 10 Swiss francs, at dinner he gave me 10 Swiss francs, so I get 30 francs in one day, which is a month’s my salary. He said, “Are you Jewish?” 

Turner: You said that? 
BIRNBACH: No. He said, “Are you Jewish?” I said, “Yes.” He said ”I’m Jewish too.” And automatically, like the law in my head, my father was in front of me, in front of me … Without thinking, I put the hand out and said, “Shalom Aleichem,” and he said, “Aleichem Shalom.” And I had tears and he had tears… [long pause] [quietly] I’m sorry… 

Turner: That’s understandable. 
BIRNBACH: He picked up the phone. He talked to Mr. Lende, and said, “Starting today, I want Max as a room waiter here everyday, nobody else. And this is an order Mr. Bulova. Mr. Lende, if you want me to stay in this hotel.” You know the answer. So next day, the headwaiter came back. He said, “Max, I want to talk to you.” “By golly, he’s going to fire me.” He said, “You know Max, you’re a very nice boy and you do a very good job. I’ll let you wait on Mr. Bulova starting today.” Naturally, Mr. Lende told him this. So I waited on him about a week, two weeks. He said, “Max, what can I do for you?” I said, “Mr. Bulova, you’re so nice to me, I don’t know what you can do for me.” He said, “Are you… what citizen are you?” I said ”I’m stateless.” He said, “How come?” I said, “You know my escape and I’m in Switzerland. I’m not a Swiss citizen. He said, “How long you in Switzerland?” I said, “About eight and a half years, nine years.” He said, “You’re not a Swiss citizen?” “No.” He said, “Why not?” I said, “They don’t make a Jew a citizen, a Swiss citizen, except he must have millions of dollars in order to ….” He said, “Would you like to be a Swiss citizen?” “Oh this would be fabulous.” “I make you a Swiss citizen.” I said, “Mr. Bulova, this is impossible.” He said, “Don’t tell me what is possible or not. You don’t know to whom you speak.” He picked up the phone and called his lawyer, in Bern. “I want you to be here tomorrow morning at 9:00 in my, in my room.” He didn’t tell him what. So I said to him, “Mr. Bulova, please, you going to expenses, you lose every cent. It’s impossible to become a Swiss citizen.” He said, “Don’t make me angry, Max.” I said, “This is the last thing I want to do.” So next morning, he said, “Order breakfast for three.” So the lawyer, he and I had breakfast, and he was absolute flabbergasted that … See this is in Switzerland is two classes, you know, the upper and lower; there’s no medium. So he’s in the upper class, the lawyer. He’s a personality in Switzerland. And the waiter there, and an immigrant on top is sitting on the same table with him. He couldn’t understand this. Whatever his name was, “I want you to make this boy ….” and I remember the word , boy … “a Swiss citizen.” I looked at him. I won’t say what he said. He said, “Mr. Bulova we’re trying.” I said to him, “You know, sir, why can’t you tell the truth …” Because I was mad … I said, “Why you lie to Mr. Bulova. You know … ” “You calling me a liar?” I said, “I didn’t want to insult you, sir, but you know the Swiss law better than I am. You’re a lawyer, you know that a Jew, and an immigrant who’s penniless, can never become a Swiss citizen. You know it. Why you don’t tell Mr. Bulova? Why you go through all this legal hassle for nothing?” And Bulova, Mr. Bulova got mad. He put his fist on this [bangs table]. “You shut up to me; don’t say anything. You know who I am?” I said, “Yes I know you are a very nice gentleman.” He said, “I’m the richest man in the United States, or one of the richest men and I do what I want to in any country, this includes Switzerland, too.” I said, “I’m sorry sir to speak up to you. In this country you going to be the loser, regarding me.” He said, “OK, I’ll tell you what” Put the hands like this in the pocket, took out ten $100 bills, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten… [bangs] this is yours if you do not become a Swiss citizen.” So I took the money and pushed it back, $1000 for me I don’t have to tell you what it means. “I don’t accept this money because I’m not a thief. I’m stealing the money from you now. I don’t take the money. This gentleman know I’m right” And he got dark red in the face. He said, “OK, let’s bet one dollar of yours against thousand dollars there.” I said, “It’s unfair, I don’t take the bet.” He said to him, “You better make him a Swiss citizen or else.” A week later he called when I served there. He said, “Max, I apologize. He could not make a Swiss citizen. But still the $1000 is for you.” I said ”I’m not taking the thousand dollars. I told you I’m not taking it.” He said, “Tell you what I do for you. How would you like to go to the United States? How would you like to become an American citizen? Would you like this?” “Mr. Bulova, this is my dream.”

So he left. And a week later, later I got a letter, special delivery, this thick, with all the necessary papers to come to the United States. Now one thing I didn’t tell you is a quota, as you’re aware of it. And in Vienna, when Hitler came, the first week, my brother and I went to the American embassy to register our name. We said, “We want to immigrate to the United States to get a number. So we got the number. So now that I got a letter you still had to … because only a certain amount each year of people were born in Austria can come immigrate to the United States, never mind if you have a sponsor. I don’t know if it’s still in power or not. I don’t know. So, and there was a letter to the General American consulate in Zurich, who happened to be a friend of Mr. Bulova. I said I still have the letter some place at home. “Dear Sam, Would you do me a favor and bring this Jewish boy to the United States? He will be an asset to the United States. I will be responsible for him, until he become a United States citizen. And enclosed is my bank account where there was several million dollars. And if I can do a favor for you one day, don’t hesitate to call me right away. Sincerely, Your friend, Artie.” 

So I went, so I showed the letter to Mr. Lende. He said, “Max, I’m very happy for you.” Oh, now I want to tell you the story. When I, when they interview me, remember he left the office, I told you the story, he went to talk to his wife. And his wife was Jewish, a refugee, from Hungary, which became a Catholic when he married her, but still was Jewish. And he asked her opinion. She said, “Give him a chance.” So she came to me then and said, ”I’m happy, Max, congratulations you go to the United States.” So I went to Zurich to see the consul. Now in order to see the general consul you have to write to the consul and it takes maybe two, three months to get appointment. Got hundreds of people want appointment. You know Jewish people, or non-Jewish people want to go to the United States and they have to have appointment with the general consul. So I went, I was 25, 26 year old, very arrogant, and said, ”I’d like to see…” whatever his name was, I forgot his name. He looked at me and said …. (naturally I couldn’t speak English, but spoke German). He spoke German fluently. “You out of your mind. It takes three months to get appointment.” I said, “I don’t have three months.” He was laughing, he said, “I know. See all these people there waiting? They don’t have time too. So you take the time.” So I took out the letter which he sent for me to give it to the consul. I said, “Here’s the letter.” “Just a moment.” “Come in” So I came in to see the general consul. He was Jewish too. And this was the first time … when I was in Europe, or in Switzerland, let’s say a year, I have no idea… you see in the movie, people put the food on the desk, which I hate, by the way. And he was sitting there in a big chair like this, and nice office, and so on. He said, “Sit down, Max. How do you know Mr. Bulova?” So I told him the story. “You would like to go the United States. What you going to do in the United States?” I said, “OK” Now officially he put on the tape recorder. “I ask you three questions, and you have to answer them. Then how you answer the question is if you can come the United States or not. The first question is: You have a quota number; did you register in Vienna before?” I said, “Yes I have.” He said, “We can find this out very easily in the computer.” (or whatever it was there) “Number 2: Are you a Communist?” I said, “I hate Communists.” “Number 3: Why you want to go to the United States? What you going to do there?” I said, “I have a trade now. I’m a cook, I’m a waiter, I’m a bartender, I’m … and people like this. I understand you need in the United States. I save my money. I want to open up a restaurant. I’m a capitalist. I hate Communists. I want to make money.” “Here is your visa. You have six weeks to leave.” I said, “It’s not half enough time is it?” “Six weeks, Max, congratulations, good bye.” So I went back to Zurich, not to Bern, to Biel and then to Mr. Lende. I showed him this and he said, ”I’m proud of you.” I said, “But I have to leave, I have to buy me a ticket and all the things.” He said, “You stay here, Max, as long as you want. You stay here until last day. I don’t care.” So then, by this time Mr. Bulova was already back from the United States. 

Turner: Now what year was this? 
BIRNBACH: I think 1949. So I went up to Mr. Bulova, not as a room waiter but just to see him and say hello to him, and as a matter of fact, I called him over the phone. I asked Mr. Lende, “Mr. Lende, would you mind if you call Mr. Bulova and tell him I’m back and want to talk to him. I’m scared to call him.” He said, “Sure, Max, I’ll do it.” So he called him and said, “Max has the visa already. He wants to come up and probably wants to thank you. Can he come up?” He said, “Tell him to come and have lunch with me.” (or was it dinner, I don’t remember.) So I went up, and had lunch or dinner, I don’t remember; it probably was dinner. And I naturally thanked him, “As long as I live, Mr. Bulova, I will not forget you. This is the truth.” Every watch I buy, including the watch I wear, is a Bulova watch. Every watch I buy as a present, if it’s my son or employee, I buy a Bulova watch. Good or bad, somebody run it down, I still buy it. So he said, “OK, Max, let me ask you a question now.” He said “How much money you have?” I said, “Plenty. You gave me money, and I save every cent you gave me.” He said, “The clothes you’re wearing, they’re old fashioned. You buy, you go out and buy a new coat, and two set of suits, a hat, and shoes, and everything new. And then you have to buy a ticket to come. It’s very expensive to buy a ticket to go to the United States. How much money you have?” I said, “I have plenty.” He said, “Whatever you have is not enough.” Took out $1000. He said, “You know I owe you $1000? Here’s the $1000.” So again, “I don’t take the money.” “You better.” I said, “OK, Mr. Bulova. I want to make arrangement with you. I make a deal with you.” He said, “OK, Max, I accept your deal. What’s your deal?” “I take the money but only as a loan. When I’m in the United States, I find a job and work. I want to pay back this $1000.” “OK, Max, let me give you some advice now, will you?” I said, “I’m happy to take your advice.” “You’re a fool to pay me back; I don’t take the money.” So I took the $1000, I bought a ticket, bought me new clothes. And I left. Said goodbye to my brother, my sister-in-law, my nephew, and I went to England. And I had some friends. I stayed a few days in England and then left from Liverpool to New York. I took the Queen Mary which is, you know, was 60,000 ton or whatever. I was looking forward for the meals. Everybody was telling me the gorgeous meals you can eat from morning till night. So I went on the boat, this was the evening. I remember this like it would be yesterday, and I ate like a horse, and then the Queen Mary left the harbor. It took four and a half days, the journey to come to New York. You know what, in the morning I got seasick. I was seasick for four and a half days. I threw up. I couldn’t eat. I was in cabin with someone from Ireland who couldn’t speak German. I couldn’t speak English but he understood. He told the steward and they carried me up in a chair so I can be in the fresh air. And I want to die, and this a true story. I want to die so sick was I. Till we arrived in the harbor of New York. I will never forget this Statue of Liberty. So I arrived in New York, and then naturally I was not sea sick anymore, and there were 3000 passengers on the boat. And everybody picked them up, girl friends, boy friends, parents, relatives, friends. I was the only person who was not picked up. After everybody got picked …. five hours, ten hours … I don’t remember … So the custom inspector, who looked at the suit coat like this … And he spoke German, because I couldn’t … “Who’s picking you up?” Nobody was there. I said, “Mr. Bulova.” “Bulova who?” I said, “Artie Bulova.” He said, “Are you, you’re out of your mind? Do you know who Mr. Bulova is?” I said, “Sure I know. A very nice gentleman.” He said, “No you have not the slightest idea who he is. Well he will never pick you up. Don’t I have relatives?” I said, “No.” See at this time my aunt (remember this?) died and my uncle died. They were elderly people. So I had nobody. So he called up the HIAS, you know H-I-A-S [spells] which is a Jewish organization in New York. “They have there an immigrant. Mr. Bulova sponsored him but nobody picks him up so better somebody pick him up.” So two hour later two boys picked me up and took my suitcase and took a taxi and brought me to a hotel, and so on, Broadway and 82nd or 86th Street, I don’t know. And they asked me, “Can you pay the taxi?” I said, “I have no money.” They said, “How much money you have?” I had seven dollars there. And they brought me to a hotel there. It was a hotel for refugees. They gave me a room and they were feeding me. And then a counselor came over and asked me what profession, so on and so on. I said, “ I’d like to see Mr. Bulova.” So next day, or two days later, somebody called Mr. Bulova and said, “Max Birnbach is here. You sponsored him. He wants to see you.” He said, “Bring him over.” So we took the subway and I was amazed to see him,  “You know you saved my life you know.” His office was in Rockefeller Plaza, you know with the ice arena in the … office was on the 38th floor. So we came up. His secretary was his nephew and he wrote all the necessary papers, so he knew me from writing the papers, naturally. So he came over and said, “My name is [?]. I make your paper.” And he spoke German, too. Said “My uncle’s not here yet but he be … just sit here, relax. Then about half an hour later Mr. Bulova came and he brought me in with him. I said, “Mr. Bulova, I’m here. thank you for sponsor me.” So he put me around, went on the desk, was a window, a bay window, I mean, overlooking the ice arena. The first word he said to me, “How you like America?” What can I say? I said, “Wonderful.” “OK, what you want from me?” And I got speechless. I said, “I want a job, Mr. Bulova.” He said, “Listen,” this is all in German … “Listen, my dear, I can give you any job your heart desires. You want to be general manager of hotel. I make you the general manager. You want to be general manager of a restaurant. I make you general manager of a restaurant. You want to be maître de, I make you maître de. You name it and you make it. But I’m not going to do it. Why you think I brought you to the United States? Because we need people like you, you going to be an asset to the United States. I said, “What” … and I start to cry… “What shall I do?” “Number one.” He called his nephew in the office. “Give Max $50 a week, until he can support himself. Number two, you go to night school and learn English. Number three, you have a job with me, now you find a job for him in a restaurant. Learn English, find a job, and see me in a year. And then we talk again.” I said, “Mr. Bulova, I do not take your $50.” He said to his nephew “You know I know he’s tough, because in Switzerland he didn’t take his money, but if he needs the money, give him the money. Good bye and don’t bother me. I’m a busy man.” And I was shocked. Absolutely shocked. But the man said, “Listen, you have room and board. They will not throw you out; don’t worry.” So I took the nephew block after block, and I don’t know downtown or Broadway, I have no idea. And finally we found several restaurants. They didn’t hire me. I find a job in a German restaurant in Brooklyn as a bus boy. And the man says, “What kind of experience you have?” I said, “I graduated from the hotel and restaurant school.” Naturally we spoke in German … “and Mr. Bulova sponsored me.” He was very impressed, when I said, “And I going to go to night school. I like to work in the day- time. ” He said, “Why you want to do this?” I said, “Because I want to go ahead in life.” “You have a job. Start tomorrow. Be here at 6:00 in the morning. You work from 6:00 till 2:00,” (or whatever it is) “and then you can go to school.” So I said to the man “Can you give me a few days. I want to find a room near the restaurant. And I don’t want ever to take an hour with the subway. “He said, “Sure, just call me.” So he had a list of apartments. We found a room, a room with a Jewish family, about ten minutes walking distance from the restaurant. So I called them up, or he called them and said, “He can start on this and this day.” And so I started there. After two weeks I knocked on his door [knocks] …. I forgot his name … “Can I talk to you?” He says “Yes.” I said, “I want to be a waiter.” He said, “Listen, you’re only two weeks here.” I said, “I can do the job. I was a waiter in Switzerland.” “Here’s the menu. Read the menu.” So I read it, “Not perfect, but… tomorrow you are a waiter.” So I worked as a waiter for about six months, I don’t know. I tried to speak a little English with a customers and everybody said the same thing, “Forget it. You’re English is horrible. Just speak German. It’s easier for me to understand you.” I said, “But I will never learn English. How do you learn English?” So I had a teacher in the night school, it was a lady. I went five nights a week to school in the high school. I said to her “Miss” or “Ma’am” (whatever I said) “When we learn English? In the restaurant they refuse to speak English to me.” She said, “Max, don’t worry. Just learn in the school, and I tell you when you’re going to be comfortable to speak English.” I said, “When?” “When you dream in English.” I said, “I can’t even speak English.” She said, “When you dream in English then you get any job in the United States. Study, go even to the college, but don’t give up.” So then after six or eight months one of the customers said to me, “How much money you make here?” I didn’t want to say, “It’s none of your business.” I said, “I make a nice living.” He said, “I own a hotel in the Catskills.” You know the Catskills? 

Turner: Sure. 
BIRNBACH: “I want you to work in the Catskills. You’re going to make more in six weeks than you make here in a year, on tips.” I said, “I going to lose my job here.” He said, “Listen, with your know-how I find you any job in New York” So I said, “OK” So I went to the owner and told him the story, and he said, “This is not nice of you. I get so many nice comments about you and…” “Well I’m sorry to say, can I have the job back?” He said, “No.” So I went to the Catskills, in Fleishmann’s, worked there, and worked from morning till night I worked there, no day off, and end of the week, the whole family come there and the husband leaves and the weekend he comes over, you know how it is. And then he gives me an envelope. And then I took the money. I didn’t trust the bank. So I put all the money under my mattress. So make the story short, when the seasons are over, I counted $1520. All in $20 bills. I put it in my pocket, and I wrote a letter to a friend in New York I said, “I’m coming back. Find me a room.” So he found me a room, and was a room in a rooming house overlooking the Central Park. So also on the sixth floor, whatever it was, so I went there. By this time I knew a little bit, I took the subway. Still the money in my pocket, to see Mr. Bulova. And the nephew, I called the nephew and said I want to see him. He said, “He’s very busy.” “Tell him I have to see him.” He said, “OK.” So I came in and said, “Mr. Bulova …” “Hi Max, how you doing?” I said, “I’m doing very nice, I come back to pay back my dues. I owe you $1000.” He said, “I don’t want your money.” I said, “Remember, Mr. Bulova, what you said to me.” He said, “No, you tell me.” “You said ‘If I’m a fool to pay you back, you take the money. Did you say this?” He said, “Yes.” “Here’s the money.” All in $20 bills. He said, “Now, Max, I want you to do me a favor.” So the elephant talks to the flea. I said, “What do you want me to do?” He said, “I own a foundation, which is a GI foundation for crippled soldiers. They teach them to become watchmakers. I employ 10,000 people in New York. And I want you to donate this money to my foundation.” I said, “Whatever you say.” He said, “Sign your name. So,” he said, ” I’m proud of you. Just continue, save some money and see me in a year, and I’m help with. I’m going to lend you the money to open up a restaurant. I want you to open up your own restaurant.” Now I did not know that I could deduct the money because of a donation, because I was an innocent. So I went back to New York, found another job in a German-speaking restaurant as a waiter, but I spoke only English. If somebody answered me in German, I played, I said, “Listen, I want to learn English, please speak, speak English to me.” But I hated New York. I didn’t like the climate, I didn’t like the people. So I went to the library. There was a young attractive girl there. I said, “I need your help.” She said, “What can I do for you?” I said, “ I’m from Europe. I was born in Vienna. I work here. I will be very honest with you. I don’t like it here.” She said, “Why not?” I said, “Because I don’t like the climate, and the people are very rude. I like to go to a state in the United States which has a similar climate like Switzerland and Austria. Could you help me?” She said, “Yes.” She showed me a atlas and said, “There three states which I recommend: northern California, State of Washington, and Oregon.” 

She showed it to me. “In my opinion, Oregon were the closest. I asked her “What is the capital of Oregon?” She said, “Portland.” I said, “Thank you very much.” And I wrote a letter to the Jewish community of Portland and told them a little bit of my story, my background, “I want to move to Portland. I don’t want to live here. Could you help me?” And I underlined in red, “I do not need financial help but please find a room with a Jewish family.” A week later, or two weeks later, I got a letter back from a family, the name was Reese and they own a gown shop here. On Alder street they used to own a shop. And said, “We’re in New York on this day. We stay in this hotel. Give us a call.” So I called the hotel. I came over. They invited me for dinner. I had dinner with them. They liked me and said, “You come to Portland whenever it’s convenient for you and you stay in our house.” And then I said, “I like at the holidays, I want to spend in New York, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.” 

Turner: So you were observant. 
BIRNBACH: Yes, I was. Ya. I still am, but I’m not Orthodox since I belong to Neveh Shalom. And after the holidays, I wrote them, I took the train. It takes two, three days and two nights. I changed trains in Chicago. I was afraid to leave the station, if I got lost, and I arrived in Portland and they were waiting at the station. They picked me up, and I stayed in their home. And they had a man here, an uncle. The name were Anselm Boskowitz, which one of the most famous Jewish people in Portland. Everybody knows him. He passed away. He was a rich man. He was retired. And his goal was to help refugees. And he was the uncle of Mr. Reese, so he called him in and he introduced him to me. And the same evening, and this is a nice story. He invited the general from the Coast Guard in Oregon, who was a friend of Mr. Reese, also on this evening. I was introduced to him and he talked to me and Mr. Boskowitz in Yiddish, which I understand. I don’t speak it fluently as I used to speak fluently but I understand every word. And the General spoke in English, and I could not answer him, naturally. But more or less, I understood pretty good what he said to me. “Why did you come to Portland? What you do in Portland? What you going to do?” And all these kind of questions. I couldn’t answer. So he said to Mr. Reese, “This is a idiot. Why did you bring … He didn’t even answer my question.” And Mr. Reese felt upset with him and said in a nice way, “He’s not a idiot. He’s a very intelligent young man. He cannot speak English, but he understands more or less what you said. But he’s not a idiot. He’s not a idiot.” And he was very upset about this but didn’t say anything about it. So next day, Mr. Boskowitz took me around. He didn’t want to be me a waiter. He said, “I don’t want you be a waiter. This is not Jewish. You go back in textile. You can make much more money there.” So he took me to White Stag. Huh? He knowed everybody. He took me in and said, “I want you to hire this man.” “We have no job.” “You better give him a job.” He was scared of him, and he gave me a job in the storeroom. And I worked the storeroom, you know, and I hated it. I stayed a month there. And, and one, and I don’t know, Mr. Hirsch, or somebody, maybe the son, came in …”You continue with your work, you will make it very far in our company; we need people like you who work hard. They don’t watch what time; they don’t take breaks. You never take breaks.” But I didn’t like it, and I didn’t make enough money, and I don’t know what my salary were, maybe … 

Turner: This must be about 19… 
BIRNBACH: ’50. 

Turner: ’50. 
BIRNBACH: Yes. And then I quit. After a month or two months, I don’t know. And I stayed still with Mr. Reese and he was very upset with me, Mr. Reese and Mr. Boskowitz. He said, “I’m not helping you any more.” I said to Mr. Reese, “Listen, Mr. Reese, I’m a good waiter. Could you help me to find in a restaurant a job as a waiter? And I don’t want to stay here with you. And I paid the rent. He said, “You don’t have to pay.” I said, “I insist on paying it. Please help me to find a room with a Jewish family and help me to find a job with a restaurant.” He said, “OK.” So he took me to the Multnomah Hotel. You know the Multnomah Hotel? 

Turner: Sure. 
BIRNBACH: It’s not any more, but it used to be a restaurant hotel, you know. And I asked for a job. He said, “What can you do?” And I told him. He said, “We have no … Why don’t you try the Benson Hotel?” So we went to the Benson Hotel, and I watched the banquet manager or catering manager, he was many, many years worked for the hotel. And he said, “What kind of job you want?” I said, “Anything you have.” He said, “What is anything?” “Busboy, waiter, dishwasher, room waiter, anything.” Then he made fun of me, of my accent, you know. And I know this and I was mad inside, but I ignored it. He said, “What kind of experience you have?” I had my certificate from the hotel and restaurant school. I said, “I graduated from the hotel school in Switzerland.” He said, “So did I.” I said, “I worked in many leading hotels and restaurants in Switzerland. He said, “So did I.” ” And I worked in New York, I worked in a restaurant, I worked in the Catskills. ” “So did I.” But I had letters from everybody and showed him. He was flabbergasted. I started there as a busboy in the London Grill. And I worked there. I They made many things wrong, what they doing, but who is me to be saying, “You’re doing something wrong?” I didn’t say anything. After I work about, I make a guess, about six months as a busboy in the London Grill, and then he came to me and said, “You’re too good to be a busboy. How would you like to be a room waiter?” I said, “I used to be a room waiter. I would like to do this.” So I worked as a room waiter maybe six months, I don’t know. And then he came to me and said to me, “How would you like to be a banquet waiter?” “What, ya.” I was not too excited about it. I liked as a room waiter, when you like it it’s fine. Now you know the Benson Hotel. Now as a room waiter I had to go in to the lobby quite often. A guest said, “Can you bring me a little straw there, some cards, or a package cigarettes.” So I went the lobby and bought it up. And naturally it’s a big lobby, and they said to me, “This makes no sense to me.” I said, “We, I mean the Westin Hotel makes no money; it’s an empty lobby. It’s not a good idea. So I went to this, my boss, I told him this. He was laughing. He said, “Listen, don’t ever talk to anybody or you’re going to lose your job.” So I didn’t say anything. I only said to myself, “It’s foolish.” One day in the lobby was the president of Westin Hotels, and his name was Lynn Himmerman. I knew him just from seeing, never talked, but I know he was the president. He come every two months to inspect the hotel. And he happened to be 80 percent the owner of the hotel. And Westin Hotel had a contract to carry on. So I took the carriage in the lobby, and said, “Mr. Himmerman, may I speak to you?” He said, “Who are you?” He had no idea who I was. He had about 315 employees. I said, “My name is Max Birnbach. I’m a room waiter here, and I like to talk to you.” He looked at me and he finally said, “OK, Max. What do you want?” I said, “We have a big lobby here, and we make no money. It makes no sense to me. We should make in the end of the lobby here, a little bar, we should have a food section and serve cocktails. We should serve lunch, and in the afternoon, let’s have the people arriving here from the airport. Maybe they’re sitting until the room ready. Maybe they want a cocktail. Maybe they want a snack and the hotel makes money. That’s why I want to talk to you. Nothing in it for me.” He looked at me, said, “Thank you.” End of the story. Two months later the general manager called me. He said, “Max, would you come to the office?” He said, “Go in the office.” “They will fire me?” I said, “I didn’t do anything wrong. I forgot to come for you, I didn’t do anything wrong.” So I went in the office, and his name was Callahan, I remember that was his name. He said, “Max, Mr. Himmennan called me, and told me your conversation. See Max, you should never said something. He’s very impressed with you and they going to do what you said. And you going to be in charge of this food service.” Took about six months to build it and they make me in charge. I make it short now. So I was in charge, I trained somebody else, but this time … 

Turner: This was what year? 
BIRNBACH: ’51. 

Turner: ’51. And when did they have name for the area? 
BIRNBACH: Ya, they called it Picadilly Bar. Still calling it that. And then they called me in the office and said to me, “We want to make you a banquet manager.” I said, “No way.” This is the man who hired me two years ago, who gave me the job. When he was with the hotel. What you going to do with him?” “They fired him.” “No way will I accept the job.” He said, “Listen, Max, it’s not up to you to make the decision. This is the decision of Mr. Himmennan who is the owner of this hotel. This the biggest opportunity you in life. If you turn this down, they fire you. You have no option.” I said, “Why do you have to fire him?” “Because he’s not doing what you’re doing. We can see what you do, we see what you accomplish.” No way. So I said to myself, “I feel sorry.” I said, “Can I go to him?” “No, we don’t want you to talk to him at all.” So next day he came to me. He said, “What did you do to me? I gave you a job, and you fire me, you dirty Jew.” So, what I want to say I didn’t say. The only thing I said, “Believe me I tried not to take your job. As matter of fact, I was trapped, if I don’t they fire me. If I would not said yes somebody else would get the job.” So they fired him and he hated me. So he hated me not because he lost. He hated Jews before, you know. So I became the banquet manager and the catering manager and then the food and beverage manager. This lasted till 1968. I was there 17 years. I had 99% of the Jewish business in Portland. All the Jewish weddings, all the Jewish bar mitzvah, all the Jewish catering, if it’s B’nai B’rith, if it’s the HIAS, if it’s the Jewish Community Center, I had it. I established a kosher kitchen in the hotel. I bought kosher dishes, silverware dishes, and my manager said, “You’re the only man who could do this. There are 52 hotels, nobody does what you do.” And I did that. And I called Rabbi Geller and said, “I have a kosher kitchen, I need a Mashgiach.” You know what a Mashgiach is? One who controls, sees that we don’t, not meat and, and milk, you know. You need different dishes for milk and meat, and they buy kosher meat. So he sent somebody over, and so I did this. Now they were so impressed with me. They opened a hotel in Los Angeles, the Twentieth Century Plaza, and offered me the job there. He said, “You can make ten times the money what you make here.” And I turned it down because my wife didn’t want to go and my, my children…. Jack was a little boy; they were crying. And I didn’t like the climate. He said, “You have to go to Los Angeles for two weeks to teach him what you know.” So I went and spent two weeks in Los Angeles, whoever they hired and, and told him. Then I came back, they called me in the office and said, “Max, they’re very mad at you. You can never go ahead in Westin hotel.” I said, “OK. May I …” His name was [?] “… may I ask you a question?” “Yes.” “I understand this, but I want to be the general manager of a Westin hotel.” He said, “You’re kidding.” I said, “Why should I kid you? I know everything. I know the hotel. I’m 17 years here. I know the food business. I know the bar business. I know everything. I can do the job maybe not as well as you, Mr Callen, naturally, but if they would put me under you for, for six months, I can do it. I don’t care what you pay me. Please pass this on to Mr. Himmerman.” So two weeks later he called me in the office and said, “Max, I’m sorry, you reached the highest in our organization.” Now I know what it meant. It meant because I’m Jewish, you cannot become a manager. I make this up. I cannot prove it. That no Jewish managers in Westin hotels, not even today. So then he said to me, “Max… ” by this time I was married and had two little children. I said, “I going to open my own restaurants. And I knew two, two or three people, customers, and said, “Listen, what you think? Can I do this?” They said, “Yes.” I said, “Could you test the water?” So they test the water and they, looked about six or eight or ten restaurants which were for sale. And one of them was Rose’s. And I accepted it. So I said to myself, “OK.” So the owner of Rose’s was Mrs. Rose, which approached me. Her son-in-law was Dr. Rosenbaum approached me. But I was scared to death. Scared to death to do it. And I changed my mind. “I’m not going to do it.” Then he said, “We’ll make it very easy for you, Max. We want you in.” I said, “Doctor, I’m scared.” So then they sold to other man, everybody know him in town too, and he bought it. I’m sorry I forgot the name. And he kept it nine months and runned it in the ground. Was nearly bankrupt after nine months. But he knew that Dr. Rosenbaum offered it to me, so he came in the hotel to talk to me. And he said to me, “Max, I want to out because …” “Why, you had it only nine months?” He said, “I have other obligations, in the other business, I want out.” So he showed me the figures and my opinion, I don’t want to say what I said. So he showed me the restaurant. I’m divorced now, so I took my ex-wife and my two little children to a restaurant in here, in this restaurant on a Friday night. And there were eight people in the total restaurant, and they’re at dinner. You can ask Jack with Brenda Lee. Ask, I want you to talk to him. And we all three cried. Now my two children cried because I promised them I will send to college. This was my dream. I didn’t go to college. My dream was I want them to go to college. I want them to give an education. Said, “If I buy the restaurant I lose every cent I have.” My wife said, “If you buy the restaurant you’re responsible for it because I am against it.” I bought the restaurant. My heart was going like this. Now I put down $50,000, which I saved in 17 years. Oh by the way, Mr. Bulova died one year later, so I never could go back to him. Remember that? 

Turner: Sure. 
BIRNBACH: Ya, so I couldn’t go there. So I bought the restaurant, $50,000, all my life savings. I put the ad in the Oregonian that I leave the Benson Hotel and open Rose’s restaurant. Next day I had a waiting line and from the first day on till today I was successful, if you call it successful I don’t know. Now, when I opened this restaurant I had 28 employees. Today I employ 250 employees, and I own three restaurants, and a bakery. So this is my story. I stop now and … 

Turner: That’s quite a story. You continue to be active in the Jewish community? 
BIRNBACH: Yes, I am, to a certain degree, yes…. 

Turner: Any sort of overall things? 
BIRNBACH: I support every… I get so many letters every day about donations which I throw all in the garbage except 99% of my donations go to Jewish organizations. It’s in my blood. And I was, am a Rotarian. I belong to City Club. I belong to the Chamber of Commerce. I was director of the Restaurant Association. I’m a Mason. I was very, very active, but I’m slowing down. I want to turn over this business to my son. 

Turner: And you have another child? 
BIRNBACH: And I have another son, his name is Jerry. Oh naturally I was able to send them to college, which made me in Seventh Heaven. And Jack has a master’s degree in accounting. He’s a CPA. And my younger son has a master’s degree in business, and is now the youngest vice president of CitiCorp in New York. And they employ 100,000 people all over the world, and he’s the youngest . So I’m proud the way I brought them up in a Jewish home. I taught them the same thing if you meet a Jewish man with Shalom Aleichem, Aleichem Shalom, I want you to say this. And hopefully they will do this. They don’t take drug; they don’t drink. They both nice Jewish boys. Jack got married, a nice Jewish girl. My other boy is not married, but he’s a nice boy, so I’m happy what I accomplished. So this is my life. 

Turner: Just a question. You married here in Portland? 
BIRNBACH: Yes. 

Turner: So you were, must have been about 30…. 
BIRNBACH: No, I was 36. 

Turner: Any last words you want to put in terms of your thoughts about the, your experience in Vienna …. 
BIRNBACH: Ah, the only thing I would pass on is I agree with what you’re doing. I agree my grandchildren, if I should have grandchildren, or your grandchildren or any …. this should never be forgotten, never. That the future generation should know about this and we should teach this in our schools here, not only in Portland, but all over the United States. This is the most important thing in our country and thank God we a free country. We should teach this. You know what’s starting now with this neo-Nazis in there, and we should stop it in ground, right now. Not let them forget, because I know, we were laughing, including my parents and, and all. “He will never. This will never happen, never.” Never underestimate Hitler, not only the Jewish people, but the Christian people, so never underestimate. But look what he did, not only to the Jewish people, how many Christian people, or other religious people, who he killed and gassed. So we should make the highest priority to teach this our children and grandchildren in school, what happened, and let them know this is a true story. Not that people just some people now, “This never happened.” That’s what I pass on in this future. And be a human being, help other people, Jews and not Jews, doesn’t matter. Be a good human being. The Lord helped me and I tried to help anybody I can. And sometimes I get the remark from friends or even from my children, “Dad, why you do things like this?” I say, “Because I was helped. I brought two people to the United States. I sponsored. Non Jewish. I was approached last week by somebody, to help to bring a Russian Jew from Russia and as I helped what must, whatever I can, I will do this. So this is my story. 

Turner: Thank you very much. 
BIRNBACH: Thank you.